What is Gender?

[Azuren]

the-pi-guy said:

o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?

Honestly, the most unsettling aspect of that last picture is the fact that he's intentionally trying to take pictures that include other people in the bathroom, not that it's a FTM being forced to used the ladies room (which, let's be real, he's very fucking passable and wouldn't turn a single head if he walked into the men's room. I forsee very few regulations preventing him from using the restroom he wants, short of a fucking genital check before entering).