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Forums - General Discussion - Mafia Round 14 - Game Thread

Falcon095 on 18 March 2010
theRepublic said:

He also killed the players who failed to respond to PMs.  It is fair to the game.  It is fair to the living players.  Also, we need to remember that all the modkills were of players of unknown roles.  Most the town had no clue if someone was going to turn up scum, or townie, or town power role when they were modkilled.  Dtewi's role was already known to everyone.  Kill him and the game is royally screwed.  What makes you think that pro-town players would even continue to play at that point?

SciFiBoy did say he lost.

Once again, you are missing the point, we are not complaining because dsister had lost and then was resurrected to win, we are not complaining because dsister had a role and that made him find something and made him replace dtewi unfair, we are complaining because a dead player, (unless it does have a important role) doesn't matter who, came back to replace another player (in an already unfair situation) just because he posted in the thread "Hey I can comeback!", that isn't fair to the rest of the dead players, I'm sure all of them would've glady came back.
I know this is not directed at me, but I am going to respond anyway.  How do you propose to be fair to everyone in this specific case?  Either you are fair to the dead, and the game is destroyed, or you are fair to the living, and the game can go on.

Yes, I know why every modkilled player got modkilled, but he didn't modkilled every person who did whatever reason to deserver being modkilled. I'm not gonna say more details and will put it as simple as this:

Lestatdark told the mod he couldn't play - He got modkilled

Dtewi told the mod he couldn't play - He got a replacement

See a difference?

Ok.. And what's the difference? Weather he won or not is NOT the point.

Er.. How would the game have been destroyed if dtewi hadn't got a replacement?

 

zexen_lowe said:

No, it's not. It's pretty much the same as getting anyone else in the game to replace him. It's not the first time we've had replacements, I fail to see how it's any wrong. Fuck, even MM got replaced first night for trashleg. If you wanna complain about not everyone being replaced, fine, do so, but otherwise, dtewi being replaced by dsister or dtewi being replaced by yeswiican it's the same for the game

First of all I never said anything about being against all replacements, if you look carefully at my post you can see I talked specifically about "a kind" of them.

I can't really remember a replacement in which a dead player would replace a living one (I could have bad memory, though). MM's replacement and dtewi was way different, one got replace in day 2 when eveything was normal because he was unable to participate for a person who couldnt make it to the sign-up, the other got replaced in day 4(?) when there was an already questionable situation by a dead person. Can't you not see the difference? All that I'm saying is that something like that happens againt there should be at least a way to chose who gets "revived", chosing the person who says "Hey I'm here" It's unfair to the others, and would lead to an unnecessary and annoying situation of every dead person posting "Hey I'm here" with the hope somebody gets removed.

 

 

 

 

 



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Falcon095 on 18 March 2010
theRepublic said:
SciFiBoy said:
theRepublic said:

I'm not talking in general.  I'm talking about this specific case.  Are you telling me that if you were mod, you would have had no problems with destroying the game in fairness to the dead?

destroy the game?

how so?

it would just have continued without dtwei/cop and reached whatever result it was gonna reach. (we have no way of knowing for sure what that would have been)

You don't think this would have destroyed the game?  This happened Day Four.  So the game would have had 10 people: three townies, a nurse, a friendly neighbor, an alcoholic night watchman, a serial killer, one Corleone mafia, and two Tattaglia mafia (one of which is a mafia cop).  Four scum against six pro-town with no investigative ability.  That is virtually game over.  The only question is which scum faction wins.

Not to mention the fact that the previous day the game almost died on its own, and the mod would have just killed a player whose role was both known to everyone, and extremely important.  I can imagine several pro-town players quiting in disgust at that point, myself included.

Dude, if the game was like that if was because of TOWN's FAULT, the town sucked in last game, they just did. If one team screw it up they will have a disadvantage, that's how this game works. I will repeat you again what were practically the roles  involved

Anti towns:

SK

2 Mafia corleone

Mafia cop (which shouldn't really count since was practically useless btw)

Mafia hitman

Pro towns:

9 townies

Jailkeeper

Bus driver

Cop

Deputy

Doctor

Nurse

Friendly Neightbor

Alcoholic Night Watchman

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So as you can see Not only did the town had numerical andvantage BUT ALSO had way more power roles that the anti town. Seriously, Can't you really see how unbalanced this game was?



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Final-Fan on 18 March 2010
SciFiBoy said:
Final-Fan said:
@ SFB's point 2:
Firstly, calm down. You are going ALL CAPS CRAZY about this.

Now: dsister did not resurrect. He substituted for dtewi in a way that had nothing to do with his previous role in the game. The effect was exactly the same as if he had merely been an interested observer instead of a player for the earlier part of the game. i.e. the fact that he was a former player and had not merely been an interested observer FORMERLY was irrelevant to the integrity of the game.

If you're just upset that he happened to be the lucky one to get to sub in for dtewi and therefore play more than other people whose characters died, then I have to say you're just going to have to deal with the fact that not all people can have that opportunity.

If it's some other reason, I just don't see your rationale here. All I can think of is you're having trouble separating dsister's character (which died AND DID NOT COME BACK) from dsister the person who had that character and later substituted for dtewi in the UNRELATED character of the town's Cop.

everyone should wait till the next game to play again, no-one should get that advantage, its completley unfair.

AT NO POINT have I asked for that oppurtunity, either for myself or for anyone else, I have ALWAYS said that NO-ONE should get that oppurtunity, because its not fair on all the other players.

Ive been saying the same thing all along, if you die in a game, you cant play again till the next round, thats the rules EVERYONE ELSE played to, without fail, including me and you.

again: NO-ONE should have that oppurtunity, how is that so hard to understand?

replacing people in these games is questionable at the best of times because you cant do that for everyone (therefore making it unfair and unbalancing the game), to replace them with someone who was already out of this game, is even worse, they havent even waited or just missed out on the game (reserve list idea).

In future, I think all inactive players should be modkilled. without exception, no replacments either.

So, from what I understand, your objection is specifically about how unfair it is for players whose characters died to get to play again as "alternates", due to unfairness of other dead players not enjoying the same opportunity.   (Not about information/opinions the players have, which they shouldn't; and not directly about the fact that "alternates" are in use at all -- as I understand, your beef is with the specific alternates themselves, not the concept of them.) 

My response is this:  I don't think it's really unreasonable for players whose characters have died to serve as alternates if normal alternates are not available.  I don't think it should be necessary to have a huge list of alternates just to avoid this situation from coming up.  For those of you who feel that strongly about it, I'm sure we can come to some arrangement whereby "players who desperately want to be alternates if they die" can be at the top of the list.  But if you die after the last alternate comes in, certainly you can't complain about that. 

So would that fix your problems with this?  Or does the idea that not every single person who wants to be an alternate will necessarily get used for that purpose fill you with such outrage that you cannot abide anyone at all being an alternate?  (Sounds like the dog in the manger )  Or, conversely, does the idea that there might ever ever EVER be a modkill without an alternate in the wings make you feel so outraged on behalf of the team that DIDN'T get a replacement that you don't want anybody EVER to get one? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 18 March 2010
Falcon095 said:
theRepublic said:
SciFiBoy said:
theRepublic said:
I'm not talking in general.  I'm talking about this specific case.  Are you telling me that if you were mod, you would have had no problems with destroying the game in fairness to the dead?
destroy the game?
how so?
it would just have continued without dtwei/cop and reached whatever result it was gonna reach. (we have no way of knowing for sure what that would have been)
You don't think this would have destroyed the game?  This happened Day Four.  So the game would have had 10 people: three townies, a nurse, a friendly neighbor, an alcoholic night watchman, a serial killer, one Corleone mafia, and two Tattaglia mafia (one of which is a mafia cop).  Four scum against six pro-town with no investigative ability.  That is virtually game over.  The only question is which scum faction wins.

Not to mention the fact that the previous day the game almost died on its own, and the mod would have just killed a player whose role was both known to everyone, and extremely important.  I can imagine several pro-town players quiting in disgust at that point, myself included.
Dude, if the game was like that if was because of TOWN's FAULT, the town sucked in last game, they just did. If one team screw it up they will have a disadvantage, that's how this game works. I will repeat you again what were practically the roles  involved

Anti towns:
SK
2 Mafia corleone
Mafia cop (which shouldn't really count since was practically useless btw)
Mafia hitman
Pro towns:
9 townies
Jailkeeper
Bus driver
Cop
Deputy
Doctor
Nurse
Friendly Neightbor
Alcoholic Night Watchman
____________________________________________________________________________
So as you can see Not only did the town had numerical andvantage BUT ALSO had way more power roles that the anti town. Seriously, Can't you really see how unbalanced this game was?

It looks more unbalanced when you FORGET THREE MAFIA. (And the Vigilante.) Here's the list I got from TOS's scoreboard:
Townie x 9
Nurse
Cop [SUBSTITUTED]
Friendly Neighbor
Alcoholic Night Watchman
Doctor
Deputy
Bus Driver
Vigilante [MODKILLED]
Jail Keeper

Serial Killer
Mafia T
Mafia T [MODKILLED]
Mafia C
Mafia C [SUBSTITUTED]
Mafia C [MODKILLED]
Mafia C Roleblocker [MODKILLED]
Mafia T Cop

And even if the mafia cop wasn't much good to you this game, it's not like there weren't a bunch of townie roles that didn't do any good.

[edit:  Added detail to list.  I thought that instead of forgetting 3 mafia and the vigilante you might have been just subtracting the modkills, but no.  So now we see that the town had 1 modkill and 1 substitution and the mafia had 3 modkills and one substitution.  Considering that the mafia started out grossly overpowered ... I don't see a problem with the modkillings nor with the choice to substitute for the cop.  Hey, the mafia got one sub too.]

[edit2:  ... well, you probably have a point about lestatdark.  It probably wouldn't have been that hard to find him a substitute; hell, I would have stepped in.  But that's not a problem of substituting the cop, it's NOT substituting lestat.]



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

SciFiBoy on 18 March 2010
Final-Fan said:
SciFiBoy said:
Final-Fan said:
@ SFB's point 2:
Firstly, calm down. You are going ALL CAPS CRAZY about this.

Now: dsister did not resurrect. He substituted for dtewi in a way that had nothing to do with his previous role in the game. The effect was exactly the same as if he had merely been an interested observer instead of a player for the earlier part of the game. i.e. the fact that he was a former player and had not merely been an interested observer FORMERLY was irrelevant to the integrity of the game.

If you're just upset that he happened to be the lucky one to get to sub in for dtewi and therefore play more than other people whose characters died, then I have to say you're just going to have to deal with the fact that not all people can have that opportunity.

If it's some other reason, I just don't see your rationale here. All I can think of is you're having trouble separating dsister's character (which died AND DID NOT COME BACK) from dsister the person who had that character and later substituted for dtewi in the UNRELATED character of the town's Cop.

everyone should wait till the next game to play again, no-one should get that advantage, its completley unfair.

AT NO POINT have I asked for that oppurtunity, either for myself or for anyone else, I have ALWAYS said that NO-ONE should get that oppurtunity, because its not fair on all the other players.

Ive been saying the same thing all along, if you die in a game, you cant play again till the next round, thats the rules EVERYONE ELSE played to, without fail, including me and you.

again: NO-ONE should have that oppurtunity, how is that so hard to understand?

replacing people in these games is questionable at the best of times because you cant do that for everyone (therefore making it unfair and unbalancing the game), to replace them with someone who was already out of this game, is even worse, they havent even waited or just missed out on the game (reserve list idea).

In future, I think all inactive players should be modkilled. without exception, no replacments either.

So, from what I understand, your objection is specifically about how unfair it is for players whose characters died to get to play again as "alternates", due to unfairness of other dead players not enjoying the same opportunity.   (Not about information/opinions the players have, which they shouldn't; and not directly about the fact that "alternates" are in use at all -- as I understand, your beef is with the specific alternates themselves, not the concept of them.) 

My response is this:  I don't think it's really unreasonable for players whose characters have died to serve as alternates if normal alternates are not available.  I don't think it should be necessary to have a huge list of alternates just to avoid this situation from coming up.  For those of you who feel that strongly about it, I'm sure we can come to some arrangement whereby "players who desperately want to be alternates if they die" can be at the top of the list.  But if you die after the last alternate comes in, certainly you can't complain about that. 

So would that fix your problems with this?  Or does the idea that not every single person who wants to be an alternate will necessarily get used for that purpose fill you with such outrage that you cannot abide anyone at all being an alternate?  (Sounds like the dog in the manger )  Or, conversely, does the idea that there might ever ever EVER be a modkill without an alternate in the wings make you feel so outraged on behalf of the team that DIDN'T get a replacement that you don't want anybody EVER to get one? 

Im against ever using people who already died in a game as replacements

as for replacements who arent already dead in the game, I think you need to be very careful about how you use them



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Final-Fan on 18 March 2010
SciFiBoy said:
Final-Fan said: 
So, from what I understand, your objection is specifically about how unfair it is for players whose characters died to get to play again as "alternates", due to unfairness of other dead players not enjoying the same opportunity.

Im against ever using people who already died in a game as replacements

as for replacements who arent already dead in the game, I think you need to be very careful about how you use them

Why are you so vehement about that prohibition?  Now it sounds like I'm wrong about the "due to..." speculation above. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 18 March 2010

And now that I think about it the mafia were even more overpowered. One team got the Mafia Cop, which just gives away roles. The other was a roleblocker, WHICH COULD BLOCK THE DOCTOR. so if the doc and cop were out and the blocker was alive (which the town didn't know about), bye bye cop.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

SciFiBoy on 18 March 2010
Final-Fan said:
SciFiBoy said:
Final-Fan said: 
So, from what I understand, your objection is specifically about how unfair it is for players whose characters died to get to play again as "alternates", due to unfairness of other dead players not enjoying the same opportunity.

Im against ever using people who already died in a game as replacements

as for replacements who arent already dead in the game, I think you need to be very careful about how you use them

Why are you so vehement about that prohibition?  Now it sounds like I'm wrong about the "due to..." speculation above. 

because, like you said, its always gonna be unfair.

 

 



TruckOSaurus on 18 March 2010

Damn! That's a lot of post-game discussion!

First, Falcon095 I think you've made more posts post-game then in-game. :P

Second, the modkills and replacement were not made with favoring any side in mind. It was all a question of participation and opportunity. When makingmusic dropped out, I had already noticed that trashleg was interested in joining the game.

When dtewi notified me, the initial plan was to modkill him and transfer his role to a regular townie but that would have caused a lot of confusion. Then I saw that dsister had mentionned three times I wouldn't mind joining back, I thought it would help the game move along because it was so damn slow.

Also, I did have a co-mod, nordlead, and I consulted with him about the dtewi replacement. His only concern was that dsister might have talked about the game with other dead players so I made sure he didn't and went along with the replacement.



Signature goes here!

SciFiBoy on 18 March 2010
TruckOSaurus said:
Damn! That's a lot of post-game discussion!

First, Falcon095 I think you've made more posts post-game then in-game. :P

Second, the modkills and replacement were not made with favoring any side in mind. It was all a question of participation and opportunity. When makingmusic dropped out, I had already noticed that trashleg was interested in joining the game.

When dtewi notified me, the initial plan was to modkill him and transfer his role to a regular townie but that would have caused a lot of confusion. Then I saw that dsister had mentionned three times I wouldn't mind joining back, I thought it would help the game move along because it was so damn slow.

Also, I did have a co-mod, nordlead, and I consulted with him about the dtewi replacement. His only concern was that dsister might have talked about the game with other dead players so I made sure he didn't and went along with the replacement.

@ bolded - I dont see how, all you would need to do is post "dtewi has been modkilled, x townie now has his power" I dont see any issue with that, the doctor/nurse would just transfer there protection, the only thing it might do is confirm that person as pro-town, but again, the doctor/nurse would just protect them so I dont see the harm.

@ italics - heres another problem with that, human beings are capable of lying, though from what weve seen it seems unlikely that he did, its a big risk to take imo.