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Forums - General Discussion - Obama's jobs plan: "double our exports over the next five years" wtf?

Twistedpixel said:
HappySqurriel said:
Twistedpixel said:
There are a lot of pros to the concept of mercantilism or running a country like a company. Inflows being imports ought to be the same or smaller than exports. A fiscally prudent country can be run a lot like a large multinational company. I suspect that a lot of economic policy is made without the understanding of how other countries actions may effect the local initiatives, like for example cheap credit for consumers. People don't need to replace their TV's every 4 years.

I see absolutely no reason for cheap credit for consumers, all it does is get the people with the least self control into trouble and take money away from productive enterprise.

Im also appalled that governments have lost sight of cheap energy as a source for economic growth. When a machine can replace human labour at a higher productivity, everyone benefits.

As much as I personally agree with this approach as a short/mid-term strategy for most countries, a large portion of the world economy needs to be a net importer; and eventually the economies of the net-exporters will exceed the size that the net-importers can handle and some countries will be forced to switch positions. The long term strategy for a country is to invest the money they receive from their trade surplus, and to use that to finance their trade deficits, in order to avoid going into debt to grow their economy.

Invest money from their trade surplus to finance their trade deficits? How does that work? Most countries which currently have trade surpluses have had them for a while and the same applies to countries with trade deficits.

When you have a massive trade surplus it is inevitable that the valuation of the currencies will change and (therefore) reduce the competitive advantage you have (typically through inflation), or you will be forced to build up a massive reserve of foreign currency. If you choose to take this foreign currency and invest it in its country of origin you will (hopefully) build up a very large portfolio of investments and, in a similar fashion to retirement, you can slowly drain this investment portfolio to survive the reversal of the balance of trade without significant inflation or deflation.



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HappySqurriel said:
Twistedpixel said:

Invest money from their trade surplus to finance their trade deficits? How does that work? Most countries which currently have trade surpluses have had them for a while and the same applies to countries with trade deficits.

When you have a massive trade surplus it is inevitable that the valuation of the currencies will change and (therefore) reduce the competitive advantage you have (typically through inflation), or you will be forced to build up a massive reserve of foreign currency. If you choose to take this foreign currency and invest it in its country of origin you will (hopefully) build up a very large portfolio of investments and, in a similar fashion to retirement, you can slowly drain this investment portfolio to survive the reversal of the balance of trade without significant inflation or deflation.

Ahh, sorry I see what you mean now. I agree.



Do you know what its like to live on the far side of Uranus?

^Or you could keep your currency low on purpose like China does to have an export advantage over other countries.



TheRealMafoo said:
China makes crap because it's a business decision to do so. It's not because they can't make things as well as other countries. They make things cheep because that's what companies that hire them to make things want out of them.

When it comes to high end electronics (like Apple computers for example), China makes some very good stuff.

Dead on. It's not impossible for them to create quality products. It's just more lucrative for them to make shoddy products en masse.



I am the Playstation Avenger.

   

numonex said:
Outsourcing factory jobs to China is good in the short-term and significantly improves multinational companies bottom lines and profit margins. But in the long-term the loss of factory jobs results in higher unemployment in developed countries, local factories close down and consumers in developed countries may stop spending. Outsourcing lots of jobs ends up hurting a lot of people. 

Except that's not the case. Manufacturing in the UK, for example, has been falling for decades, now, and yet, recessions aside, employment has been rising - since the 2000s, in particular: when the rise of Asia started to go into full swing, and manufacturing started leaving at a much faster rate, and yet unemployment had been falling rather rapidly, also.

This is because new jobs are being created at a faster rate than which they are being lost. This is directly attributed to globalisation. What's happening is that different countries have different things to offer. China can offer cheap labour, so it's taking manufacturing. The UK can't offer this, however, but it can offer a far more educated work force, so businesses that focus on these areas flourish in our country. Hence our financial and research industries - China won't be able to compete at a grand scale with these industries for many decades, and, then, when they do, our competitive advantage in other areas will grow, and we'll specialise into a different area, again.



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The thing is Samuel, the impact that outsourcing jobs will have on a country isn't determined by track record, and you can't solidly say that because employment is now rising, and has been for some time in the UK, the same phenomena will occur in other developed countries. Look at it this way and make the comparrisson: Britain bewteen 1970- 2000 - supplemented workforce by HUGE increase in migration ; Joining of the EU = abundance of lucrative foreign investments in UK banks/buisnesses; radical overhaul of Welfare system ; augementing free market economy during the Thatcher years; relatively small population. : Therefore we've found that in this country employment is something that is more stable than say, the US, where tertiary and manufacturing co-exist in a free market economy, and jobs are scarce because of internal protectionism, and fierce competition to keep labor costs down. To curb long run unemployment is something that can't as easily be solved circumstancially, like the UK's.



SamuelRSmith said:
numonex said:
Outsourcing factory jobs to China is good in the short-term and significantly improves multinational companies bottom lines and profit margins. But in the long-term the loss of factory jobs results in higher unemployment in developed countries, local factories close down and consumers in developed countries may stop spending. Outsourcing lots of jobs ends up hurting a lot of people. 

Except that's not the case. Manufacturing in the UK, for example, has been falling for decades, now, and yet, recessions aside, employment has been rising - since the 2000s, in particular: when the rise of Asia started to go into full swing, and manufacturing started leaving at a much faster rate, and yet unemployment had been falling rather rapidly, also.

This is because new jobs are being created at a faster rate than which they are being lost. This is directly attributed to globalisation. What's happening is that different countries have different things to offer. China can offer cheap labour, so it's taking manufacturing. The UK can't offer this, however, but it can offer a far more educated work force, so businesses that focus on these areas flourish in our country. Hence our financial and research industries - China won't be able to compete at a grand scale with these industries for many decades, and, then, when they do, our competitive advantage in other areas will grow, and we'll specialise into a different area, again.

I'm not sure it will grow though.


China is currently running on a "have your cake and eat it too model."


They've got a official gini coefficent higher then the US, and it's considered in reality MUCH higher because a lot of wealth is off the books.

 

The China plan seems to be to keep "poor" china and "rich" china divided... and try and dominate both markets.  It's really a brilliant twisting of Marx fundamental rule.

People don't care if they're rich or poor, they care how rich or poor their neihbors are in relation to them.

 

This path could eventually lead to revolution, either as the poor are left in third world status while the rich are as rich as any american or europeon....

however it keeps the country split, since the rich while more and more affluent wont' want to rock the boat for democracy since it lets in all the poorer people and hurts them economically.



Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
numonex said:
Outsourcing factory jobs to China is good in the short-term and significantly improves multinational companies bottom lines and profit margins. But in the long-term the loss of factory jobs results in higher unemployment in developed countries, local factories close down and consumers in developed countries may stop spending. Outsourcing lots of jobs ends up hurting a lot of people. 

Except that's not the case. Manufacturing in the UK, for example, has been falling for decades, now, and yet, recessions aside, employment has been rising - since the 2000s, in particular: when the rise of Asia started to go into full swing, and manufacturing started leaving at a much faster rate, and yet unemployment had been falling rather rapidly, also.

This is because new jobs are being created at a faster rate than which they are being lost. This is directly attributed to globalisation. What's happening is that different countries have different things to offer. China can offer cheap labour, so it's taking manufacturing. The UK can't offer this, however, but it can offer a far more educated work force, so businesses that focus on these areas flourish in our country. Hence our financial and research industries - China won't be able to compete at a grand scale with these industries for many decades, and, then, when they do, our competitive advantage in other areas will grow, and we'll specialise into a different area, again.

I'm not sure it will grow though.


China is currently running on a "have your cake and eat it too model."


They've got a official gini coefficent higher then the US, and it's considered in reality MUCH higher because a lot of wealth is off the books.

 

The China plan seems to be to keep "poor" china and "rich" china divided... and try and dominate both markets.  It's really a brilliant twisting of Marx fundamental rule.

People don't care if they're rich or poor, they care how rich or poor their neihbors are in relation to them.

 

This path could eventually lead to revolution, either as the poor are left in third world status while the rich are as rich as any american or europeon....

however it keeps the country split, since the rich while more and more affluent wont' want to rock the boat for democracy since it lets in all the poorer people and hurts them economically.

China can get away with this at the moment because of how undeveloped a large portion of their economy/work-force is; but at the rate their economy is growing it really won’t be that long before finding individuals who are willing to do this labour at such low wages will become impossible, and they will be forced into a more equitable distribution of income.

Realistically, 50 years from now I expect people to talk about China and India as being two massive modern economies where the standard of living of most people is (somewhat) in line with the rest of the developed world; and the production of cheap crap will mostly be focused in undeveloped nations (Africa would be my expectation) or by robots.



Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
So, along with rapidly priniting money, Obama wants to increase exports as a ridiculously rapid rate? Methinks that the big issue at the next election will be dealing with excess inflation.

Not to mention that the best way to keep exports up (without ridiculous levels of subsidisation - which won't help him balance the Government budget) is to the deflate the currency - which would probably mean keeping interest rates ridiculously low, yet more inflation. That, and the idea of the Government essentially taking out policies to control their rate of exchange would be rather hypocritical - given the pressure on China to free up their currency.

Not to mention he's vowed a "budget freeze" in 2011.  So... I don't think they can use subsidies.  Maybe tariffs... but I mean... that'd be stupid.

Except most major programs like SS and Medicare won't be affected so we are going to be broke anyway even with a freeze.



@HappySquirrel. Look to Bangladesh for the next factory of the world I reckon. Africa is just too volatile.