...but, this time, I hope to bring something new to the table.

Now, I'm pro-abortion. My reasons for this are that I believe that the state shouldn't have this level of control over a persons body, and that it can't really be classed as "murder", or what-have-ya, simply because a foetus - whether a sack of cells, or an unborn life - is not yet a citizen of any country, and so isn't a legal person. However, I'm guessing that those arguments are usually done to death.

No, Sam's magical twist lies in the argument that abortion actually helps lower crime rates. Call this a sweeping statement, if you must, but aren't the sorts of people most likely to want an abortion, also the most likely to have a dysfunctional family that results in "delinquent" youths?

Let's assess the stereotypical situation for a woman seeking an abortion: child is a mistake, single parent, not financially stable, may be a result of rape or prostitution, if she is a prostitute, it's likely that she's involved in drugs, etc.

Now, aren't a lot of those factors similar the ones that you would predict as being more likely to produce "hoodlum" youths?

But, let's stop supposing, let's look at a case study: the United States of America.

The US Supreme Court basically ruled, in 1973, that abortion should be legal throughout the United States (up to a certain point in the pregnancy).

Now, look at this graph:

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

The drop off starts at around 20 years after the decision was made. Is it not unreasonable to suggest that one of the reasons that crime rates have fallen, is that less people who are likely to be criminals are going to be born? Is it reasonable to suggest, that, by aborting, we could be potentially saving lives - and not any old lives - lives of legal citizens, that the state has a duty to protect.

Now, I've been warned to try and control this thread as much as possible. Given my limited powers in this area, I don't see I can reasonably do it, however, I do have faith in my fellow community... and, failing that, a big-assed report button.

I like the way British people spell foetus moreso than the way Americans do.

Also, I like the way the British people spell paedophile, but I don't like paedophiles.

In addition to that, I agree with your post.

You sure would love to be living in the utopia of "1984", wouldn't you? You won't have any rights, because the government will protect you from yourself.

So that graph is showing that their are more crimes recorded by police than actual crimes commited? I don't buy that graph at all.

A generation should be murdered, because it could theoretically in no measurable way prevent future crime.

WIN!!!!

I agree with the OP

also, he's not advocating 1984 as a good idea and the graph does not show more recorded crime than actual crime, it shows more recorded crime than reported victimisations

Even if there was an established causality here, which I very much doubt, social engineering is a pretty dubious reason to allow abortion. Protecting the rights of the mother is a better reason. I'm creeped out by the idea of the state forcing women to bear children against their will.

I also think suicide should be legal because the state ought not to force people to live against their will, so I guess you'd say I'm strangely libertarian when it comes to issues of life or death.

BTW, there are philosophical underpinnings behind the idea that a fetus isn't a person. Seems less cold than simply stating that you can't murder what isn't a legal citizen. I don't think that personhood is something that should flow from the state, either.

It's up to the women to make that decision!!!! That's the way I see it.

When you slaughter problem children, you tend to have less problems.

Since abortion targets poor minorities, one should hope that the death of their progeny would cause less problems for the society that gave them the tools to kill more of their own kind.

The better question I would have for you is to roll back the crime clock in the US to when abortion was illegal, and lower than it is now. You didn't provide a fully accurate depiction of US violent crime rates, as they took a HUGE jump in the 1960's. Prior to that, crime was much lower.

I wouldn't want to use social engineering as a reason for abortion, but it is true that an unwanted child would be much more likely to stray down the wrong paths than a loved and planned for child.