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Forums - Gaming - Cartridges -> disk -> Cartridges come back??

loves2splooge on 07 January 2010
TWRoO said:
loves2splooge said:

Flash memory is just way to expensive. Even if you consider the fact that 6.8 GB is all most games need at this point (usually games that require more than 6.8 GB these days have excessive cinematics. If game developers weren't obsessed with creating hollywood blockbusters or J-soap operas, we wouldn't need multiple DL DVD discs. Call me an old fart but I'm not impressed by "cinematic experiences" anymore like I was when I was a teenager and the whole FF7 and MGS thing felt new to me. I just want to play the freakin' game.), by the next Gen that won't be enough. So even 8 GB flash memory cards wouldn't be enough to house games and 8 GB flash memory is pretty darn expensive. A lot cheaper OEM than buying from a store but still very cost prohibitive I'm sure. Game prices would have to go up.

Now for stuff like DS, flash memory works for them but their capacity is tiny. Only 256 MB max. Now seeing that the DS has been out since 2004, the Next Gen DS flash cards will have a good deal more capacity. But I bet it won't be all that much. Maybe the cards will hold like 1 GB this time. But I think it'll be a long time before you could feasibly release games on a 8 GB flash card at a reasonable price to the publishers for home console releases. And by Next Gen, 8 GB won't be enough anyway I'm sure since games will become more graphically intensive and thus require more capacity (even without the cinematics).

I believe some DS flash carts are 512MB already (4Gbit) and the maximum is still unknown.

The DS successor will probably use at least 2GB to start with, and will only increase from there as the system ages (assuming the next handheld uses carts... which it probably will)

An advantage handhelds have over home consoles is that they use their own speakers and screen, which naturally don't need to have huge sound files or huge FMV files for cutscenes, which is really what takes up most of the space on the PS3 games that supposedly take up 25GB (for instance MGS4 supposedly took up the whole disc, but I bet half of it was for music and sound, which could have been compressed to half it's size and no one but those with uber sound set ups would have noticed any difference)

Out of curiosity, which DS games have hit the 512 MB (4Gbit) mark? The biggest game I've seen thus far was ASH (from Mistwalker) and that was 256 MB. Very rarely do DS games go above 128 MB. Even FF4 with all its fancy cutscenes was 128 MB (like you said, FMVs don't take up much space when you are designing them with a 3 inch low res screen with low quality internal stereo speakers in mind).

If Next Gen DS starts off with 2 GB, that'll be nice. That's more than the PSP's dual-layered UMDs (which they used for Crisis Core and some other big games).



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dharh on 07 January 2010

Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.

We have a long long way to go before flash catches up with disc based mediums, by that time people are going to accept downloading their games. Downloading games is way more convenient. Game gets released, everyone who wants a copy can get a copy, nearly instantly (donwload time). No waiting in line overnight, no worrying if they are sold out.

If you want a 'physical' copy, make a backup to a USB flash card. 



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
jack100 on 07 January 2010
loves2splooge said:
TWRoO said:
loves2splooge said:

Flash memory is just way to expensive. Even if you consider the fact that 6.8 GB is all most games need at this point (usually games that require more than 6.8 GB these days have excessive cinematics. If game developers weren't obsessed with creating hollywood blockbusters or J-soap operas, we wouldn't need multiple DL DVD discs. Call me an old fart but I'm not impressed by "cinematic experiences" anymore like I was when I was a teenager and the whole FF7 and MGS thing felt new to me. I just want to play the freakin' game.), by the next Gen that won't be enough. So even 8 GB flash memory cards wouldn't be enough to house games and 8 GB flash memory is pretty darn expensive. A lot cheaper OEM than buying from a store but still very cost prohibitive I'm sure. Game prices would have to go up.

Now for stuff like DS, flash memory works for them but their capacity is tiny. Only 256 MB max. Now seeing that the DS has been out since 2004, the Next Gen DS flash cards will have a good deal more capacity. But I bet it won't be all that much. Maybe the cards will hold like 1 GB this time. But I think it'll be a long time before you could feasibly release games on a 8 GB flash card at a reasonable price to the publishers for home console releases. And by Next Gen, 8 GB won't be enough anyway I'm sure since games will become more graphically intensive and thus require more capacity (even without the cinematics).

I believe some DS flash carts are 512MB already (4Gbit) and the maximum is still unknown.

The DS successor will probably use at least 2GB to start with, and will only increase from there as the system ages (assuming the next handheld uses carts... which it probably will)

An advantage handhelds have over home consoles is that they use their own speakers and screen, which naturally don't need to have huge sound files or huge FMV files for cutscenes, which is really what takes up most of the space on the PS3 games that supposedly take up 25GB (for instance MGS4 supposedly took up the whole disc, but I bet half of it was for music and sound, which could have been compressed to half it's size and no one but those with uber sound set ups would have noticed any difference)

Out of curiosity, which DS games have hit the 512 MB (4Gbit) mark? The biggest game I've seen thus far was ASH (from Mistwalker) and that was 256 MB. Very rarely do DS games go above 128 MB. Even FF4 with all its fancy cutscenes was 128 MB (like you said, FMVs don't take up much space when you are designing them with a 3 inch low res screen with low quality internal stereo speakers in mind).

If Next Gen DS starts off with 2 GB, that'll be nice. That's more than the PSP's dual-layered UMDs (which they used for Crisis Core and some other big games).


Yes, right now flash memery is expensive, but I'm talking about 10 years from now when it's gonna be chaeper, and larger in calacity.

TWRoO said:
Bamboleo said:
Mario Galaxy runs on a disk.

Not a single loading in that game.


your theory is broken :p

Of course there is... Nintendo just happens to be one of the best at hiding loading times.... if you put your ear next to your Wii while playing the game (or if you have dropped it like I have it might be loud enough to hear from further away) you will be able to hear it reading the disc, which is when it is loading.
An example of hiding loading times is in Twilight Princess, the connections between two parts of Hyrule field with thin twisty pathways before you get to the open field are there to disguise the loading time.

@voty2000. Loading times are only one disadvantage of discs... but the actual price difference would not be anywhere near enough for publishers to put prices up by more than maybe $5 (and that is pushing it, I imagine printing the disc costs the publisher maybe 50p/30cents for each game for single layer DVD, while making a cartridge might bump that up to £1)

What is making game prices go up is the graphic whoreiness of the developers (and the consumers they feed) so yes, should consoles use carts prices would go up, but publishers would blame it on carts as an excuse, when the real cost inflation is coming from having to pay for more artists and spending more time making things look realistic.

 I love Mario Galaxy, but it does have loading time.  The times I do remember when it loads is when you choose a Galaxy, and you see Mario flying to the new Galaxy?  That's a hidden load screen.  My saying is (might not always be true)  If you can't skip it, then then it's loading. like in Rogue Galaxy when you can't skip movies sometimes, cause it's loading the next part, then it gives you the option to skip.  If you read my movie skipping thread then you know how that annoys me :D



jack100 on 07 January 2010
dharh said:
Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.


ohh I agree with you, but this is the present, it could be reversed 10 years from now.



The Anarchyz on 07 January 2010

I would like to see flash memory to replace disks when it comes to console games, they're way faster and it's all about electronics, nothing mechanical is involved (except putting the game on the slot XD XD ), but in order to do that, flash memory needs to be really cheap to produce, right now the cost/GB is not worth it...

I like Digital Distribution as an option, but i hope it never replaces completely physical format...



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TWRoO on 07 January 2010
loves2splooge said:
TWRoO said:
loves2splooge said:

Flash memory is just way to expensive. Even if you consider the fact that 6.8 GB is all most games need at this point (usually games that require more than 6.8 GB these days have excessive cinematics. If game developers weren't obsessed with creating hollywood blockbusters or J-soap operas, we wouldn't need multiple DL DVD discs. Call me an old fart but I'm not impressed by "cinematic experiences" anymore like I was when I was a teenager and the whole FF7 and MGS thing felt new to me. I just want to play the freakin' game.), by the next Gen that won't be enough. So even 8 GB flash memory cards wouldn't be enough to house games and 8 GB flash memory is pretty darn expensive. A lot cheaper OEM than buying from a store but still very cost prohibitive I'm sure. Game prices would have to go up.

Now for stuff like DS, flash memory works for them but their capacity is tiny. Only 256 MB max. Now seeing that the DS has been out since 2004, the Next Gen DS flash cards will have a good deal more capacity. But I bet it won't be all that much. Maybe the cards will hold like 1 GB this time. But I think it'll be a long time before you could feasibly release games on a 8 GB flash card at a reasonable price to the publishers for home console releases. And by Next Gen, 8 GB won't be enough anyway I'm sure since games will become more graphically intensive and thus require more capacity (even without the cinematics).

I believe some DS flash carts are 512MB already (4Gbit) and the maximum is still unknown.

The DS successor will probably use at least 2GB to start with, and will only increase from there as the system ages (assuming the next handheld uses carts... which it probably will)

An advantage handhelds have over home consoles is that they use their own speakers and screen, which naturally don't need to have huge sound files or huge FMV files for cutscenes, which is really what takes up most of the space on the PS3 games that supposedly take up 25GB (for instance MGS4 supposedly took up the whole disc, but I bet half of it was for music and sound, which could have been compressed to half it's size and no one but those with uber sound set ups would have noticed any difference)

Out of curiosity, which DS games have hit the 512 MB (4Gbit) mark? The biggest game I've seen thus far was ASH (from Mistwalker) and that was 256 MB. Very rarely do DS games go above 128 MB. Even FF4 with all its fancy cutscenes was 128 MB (like you said, FMVs don't take up much space when you are designing them with a 3 inch low res screen with low quality internal stereo speakers in mind).

If Next Gen DS starts off with 2 GB, that'll be nice. That's more than the PSP's dual-layered UMDs (which they used for Crisis Core and some other big games).

Dunno, could be BS as it's from Wikipedia, maybe DSi supports higher or something (didn't mention that on the wiki page though) even so, I don't think there is a maximum as such, I would think they can at leats go to 2GB just lik SD cards can (more than that and they are SDHC cards) but again from Wiki, the larger cards have a slower data transfer, that and they are just not needed.



loves2splooge on 07 January 2010
jack100 said:
dharh said:
Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.


ohh I agree with you, but this is the present, it could be reversed 10 years from now.

I would like to see flash media become cheaper than optical media one day because of how reliable it is. Who knows if that'll happen though. I was using an external (regular magnetic storage drive) hard drive for storage and boom, my expensive 1 TB external hard drive went kaput in a matter of months and my old 250 GB external hard drive (3 years old) is on it's last legs. I went back to using DVD-R to back up storage after my negative experiences with magnetic storage but we all know that DVD-R isn't exactly all that reliable either. I use my flash memory pen drive to back up the most important things (school and other important documents and files). Everything else (downloads and what not) on DVD-R.



dharh on 07 January 2010
loves2splooge said:
jack100 said:
dharh said:
Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.


ohh I agree with you, but this is the present, it could be reversed 10 years from now.

I would like to see flash media become cheaper than optical media one day because of how reliable it is. Who knows if that'll happen though. I was using an external (regular magnetic storage drive) hard drive for storage and boom, my expensive 1 TB external hard drive went kaput in a matter of months and my old 250 GB external hard drive (3 years old) is on it's last legs. I went back to using DVD-R to back up storage after my negative experiences with magnetic storage but we all know that DVD-R isn't exactly all that reliable either. I use my flash memory pen drive to back up the most important things (school and other important documents and files). Everything else (downloads and what not) on DVD-R.

How often were you using that external HD? I've been using the same external HDs for years at a time. Going back to DVD-R? I can't imagine how many discs you use up. I stopped using discs for backups years ago and I haven't looked back since.

Also, if you're going to use an external HD as a main storage device its imperative to use 2 HDs. One is the main HD, the other is a weekly backup image of said HD. There's no excuse for losing data.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.
jack100 on 07 January 2010
dharh said:

Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.

We have a long long way to go before flash catches up with disc based mediums, by that time people are going to accept downloading their games. Downloading games is way more convenient. Game gets released, everyone who wants a copy can get a copy, nearly instantly (donwload time). No waiting in line overnight, no worrying if they are sold out.

If you want a 'physical' copy, make a backup to a USB flash card. 


it's not the same to have a physical copy on a USB flash card compared to going to the store to pick one up.....for me at least.

Downloads can be a pain if they don't have a good server, can you imagine how slow it will get if millions of people were to downlaod a game at the same time?  It would be faster for me to go to me closest game store.



dharh on 07 January 2010
jack100 said:
dharh said:

Lets see. Pennies per gig (disc based, Direct download), or dollars per gig? Do the math.

We have a long long way to go before flash catches up with disc based mediums, by that time people are going to accept downloading their games. Downloading games is way more convenient. Game gets released, everyone who wants a copy can get a copy, nearly instantly (donwload time). No waiting in line overnight, no worrying if they are sold out.

If you want a 'physical' copy, make a backup to a USB flash card. 


it's not the same to have a physical copy on a USB flash card compared to going to the store to pick one up.....for me at least.

Downloads can be a pain if they don't have a good server, can you imagine how slow it will get if millions of people were to downlaod a game at the same time?  It would be faster for me to go to me closest game store.

The servers would be able to handle it, the download servers could be made scalable so they turn on extra servers and bandwidth when necessary. Millions of people would be downloading every single day, a new release (even a mega hit) might not even be more than a blip.

What you really want is the case, to show off on your shelf, I seriously doubt most people care about the disc itself, other than the fact that its part of the package (case, instructions, disc). Even if some people do want the physical version, developers could always do both. You should obviously pay more for the physical game, but if you want it, then by all means.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.