Kenryoku_Maxis said: Xxain said: at Kenryoku - LOLOLOLL thats Soaft Ware NOT STAR WARS :).... seriously all signature western genres... SHOOTERS, ACTION, and SPORTS are dominant genres this gen...to my disgust( especially shooters) And again, like I said before, they didn't get that way simply because of 'western games'.  Those genres are not limited to Western developers.  Plenty of Action and Sports titles are released in Japan.  And shooters got popular mostly in Japan in the late 80s.  You mean 'First Person' shooters.  In which case, once again, I point out that you're trying to blame the XBOX for everything this gen.

Im not blaming XBOX, im blaming western developers for they way theve trained the Market..... the flawed " Mature Game" thinking AKA - BLOOD, CUSSING, VIOLENCE CINEMATIC , BLOCK BUSTER was caused by Western developers, the over saturation of SHOOTERS/ SPORTS / and ACTION games was caused by Western developers.... Look at the Sequel after sequel after sequel mindset all Western developers, Japanese does it too, but at least we get other IP's inbetween. if Western developers continue to lead the market thats when it will dies .... Japanese developers comes 1st there the only creative ppl never ever should a gen be lead by Western developers EVER.

Kenryoku_Maxis said: makingmusic476 said: outlawauron said: It's entirely stupid as it happens both ways. Western gamers are xenophobic outside of the big, advertised games (Nintendo stuff, FF, etc.) Eastern gamers are xenophobic outside of the big stuff (GTA, MW2, Halo, etc.) I disagree.  In the West, or at least in North America, you have a large number of anime loving, game playing, Japan fans like us.  Western Otakus, if you will.  Our numbers are strong, and we can make even a game like Valkyria Chronicles sell somewhat decently (and it's still selling!).  In japan, you don't have a fringe group of Western gamers that'll eat up games like Call of Duty.  Heavily advertised Western games sell poorly, and games that aren't advertised are destined to not even reach 10k.  A Japanese game still only sells well in the 'west' if it has advertising to back it up.  Look at such games as Dragon Quest IV and V, Muramasa: The Demon Blade or even Okami.  They didn't sell well, even with hype from the 'Anime obsessed JRPG loving underground'. It works the same way in Japan.  Nearly all western released games in Japan aside from the highly published ones like Modern Warfare or GTAIV don't get any media or recognition, and see similar sales to the games I listed for the Japanese side. Also you really should stop using the word Otaku.  It means something quite negative.

There are numerous Japanese franchise that hang with the best Western franchises in the West.  You have games like Final Fantasy selling 3 million in North America alone.  Don't even get me started on Gran Turismo or Pokemon.  Even Super Mario Sunshine on the GameCube of all systems managed 4 million in North America.  Meanwhile, the most advertised Western franchises don't come close to Japan's top sellers in Japan itself.  GTA: SA was the best selling Western game in Japan last gen, and it sold 410k.  Titles like Dragon Quest topped that by a factor of 8-10. Even smaller franchises like Devil may Cry beat it handedly.

And while many smaller Japanese titles don't recieve much recognition here in NA, you do have a few that manage a rather strong cult following, selling better than you'd expect.  Valkyria Chronicles being chief among these.  You don't hear any such success stories about niche Western games in Japan.

Khuutra said: Are w having another East vs. West argument in here? Dammit, people. Okay, who's been the loudest so far: the guys saying Western games have shitty stories as a rule, or the guys who say Japan makes no decent games?

They've been pretty equal.

Then guys like me sigh, and go back to enjoying Spirit Tracks, LittleBigPlanet, Left4Dead 2, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

outlawauron said: r505Matt said: outlawauron said: r505Matt said: PullusPardus said: ah , damn i've had it with this thread. so heres goes me generalizing everything. Western Classics , do they sell well in the west ? , nope, why? because most westerners don't care about classics, all they want is quick fun cheesy games. Eastern Classics , do they sell well in the east? , yes, Why? because most easterns like games that don't revolve around chaotic mindless battles and are more open minded. And this is why there are like 20 versions of Dynasty Warriors right? Talk about chaotic mindless battles, and those games should be at the top, not to mention lack of any deep story (yeah yeah, history, whatever, could still be better executed), and each one that comes out is just a clone of the previous. Someone hasn't played any of the recent Musou titles and has completely ignored the sales of recent titles.   Series isn't big anymore. Yeah, I know, but for a while Japan was still eating those games up. Not spectacular sales or anything, but they still kept breeding clones over and over, and making profit off them (this is just in Japan of course). Just going against the 'easterns like games that don't revolve around chaotic mindless battles' since that is like the very definition of those games. Again, you still haven't played any recent Musou games if you think they're all clones.

And where did I say anything about the Musou games? I was just commenting on Dynasty Warriors. Just because it's not so popular now doesn't mean it used to be, I was just attacking the generalization Pardus made. Unless you are going to comment on Dynasty Warriors having a mindful, well-organized battle system, and support that with valid arguements, then you shouldn't just try to add random things outside of context.

makingmusic476 said: Khuutra said: Are w having another East vs. West argument in here? Dammit, people. Okay, who's been the loudest so far: the guys saying Western games have shitty stories as a rule, or the guys who say Japan makes no decent games? They've been pretty equal. Then guys like me sigh, and go back to enjoying Spirit Tracks, LittleBigPlanet, Left4Dead 2, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

Willful ignorance is just

It's just depressing

"Ooooo, certain experiences fall outside of my narrow band of genre preference or aesthetic sensibilities, ergo they are not noteworthy in the context of this conversation"

How is Spirit Tracks, anyway? EBGames around here apparently will not have it until Wednesday, but I will be trying to get it tomorrow from Wal-Mart or HMV.

makingmusic476 said: Khuutra said: Are w having another East vs. West argument in here? Dammit, people. Okay, who's been the loudest so far: the guys saying Western games have shitty stories as a rule, or the guys who say Japan makes no decent games? They've been pretty equal. Then guys like me sigh, and go back to enjoying Spirit Tracks, LittleBigPlanet, Left4Dead 2, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii.

Yes, there are great games on both sides. I'm not really sure how people can continue to ignore that and say 'X really sucks, Y is better'.

makingmusic476 said: Kenryoku_Maxis said: makingmusic476 said: outlawauron said: It's entirely stupid as it happens both ways. Western gamers are xenophobic outside of the big, advertised games (Nintendo stuff, FF, etc.) Eastern gamers are xenophobic outside of the big stuff (GTA, MW2, Halo, etc.) I disagree.  In the West, or at least in North America, you have a large number of anime loving, game playing, Japan fans like us.  Western Otakus, if you will.  Our numbers are strong, and we can make even a game like Valkyria Chronicles sell somewhat decently (and it's still selling!).  In japan, you don't have a fringe group of Western gamers that'll eat up games like Call of Duty.  Heavily advertised Western games sell poorly, and games that aren't advertised are destined to not even reach 10k.  A Japanese game still only sells well in the 'west' if it has advertising to back it up.  Look at such games as Dragon Quest IV and V, Muramasa: The Demon Blade or even Okami.  They didn't sell well, even with hype from the 'Anime obsessed JRPG loving underground'. It works the same way in Japan.  Nearly all western released games in Japan aside from the highly published ones like Modern Warfare or GTAIV don't get any media or recognition, and see similar sales to the games I listed for the Japanese side. Also you really should stop using the word Otaku.  It means something quite negative. There are numerous Japanese franchise that hang with the best Western franchises in the West.  You have games like Final Fantasy selling 3 million in North America alone.  Don't even get me started on Gran Turismo or Pokemon.  Even Super Mario Sunshine on the GameCube of all systems managed 4 million in North America.  Meanwhile, the most advertised Western franchises don't come close to Japan's top sellers in Japan itself.  GTA: SA was the best selling Western game in Japan last gen, and it sold 410k.  Titles like Dragon Quest topped that by a factor of 8-10. Even smaller franchises like Devil may Cry beat it handedly. And while many smaller Japanese titles don't recieve much recognition here in NA, you do have a few that manage a rather strong cult following, selling better than you'd expect.  Valkyria Chronicles being chief among these.  You don't hear any such success stories about niche Western games in Japan.

And...I agree with all of this.  I was mearly pointing out that both sides have games that sell well and do poorly based on market saturation.  And as I said in another post, Final Fantasy is an established franchise which sells well because of prolongued market exposure (aka, long-term marketing and installed fanbase).  Many of the games you're citing that did 'poorly' in Japan don't have this installed fanbase.  Japan doesn't have 3 million people waiting for the next Grand Theft Auto, God of War or Fallout title.  If the companies who make these titles want them to do good, they need to prepare to do some long term saturation of the Japanese market with some heavy advertising.  As Square did with Final Fantasy already and Nintendo did with Pokemon when it first came out in the west.

Khuutra said: makingmusic476 said: Khuutra said: Are w having another East vs. West argument in here? Dammit, people. Okay, who's been the loudest so far: the guys saying Western games have shitty stories as a rule, or the guys who say Japan makes no decent games? They've been pretty equal. Then guys like me sigh, and go back to enjoying Spirit Tracks, LittleBigPlanet, Left4Dead 2, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Willful ignorance is just It's just depressing "Ooooo, certain experiences fall outside of my narrow band of genre preference or aesthetic sensibilities, ergo they are not noteworthy in the context of this conversation" How is Spirit Tracks, anyway? EBGames around here apparently will not have it until Wednesday, but I will be trying to get it tomorrow from Wal-Mart or HMV.

Sadly our shipment won't arrive until tomorrow.  I just threw it on the list to make it longer, but I'll be enjoying it soon enough!

Naznatips managed to get his hands on it, and he says it's his favorite Zelda since the Wind Waker, and apparently (surprisingly) it's pretty different from Phantom Hourglass in a variety of ways.

makingmusic476 said: Sadly our shipment won't arrive until tomorrow.  I just threw it on the list to make it longer, but I'll be enjoying it soon enough! Naznatips managed to get his hands on it, and he says it's his favorite Zelda since the Wind Waker, and apparently (surprisingly) it's pretty different from Phantom Hourglass in a variety of ways.

He mentioned the same to me. Considering how much he loved the Wind Waker (as I did), that is very high praise.

Kenryoku_Maxis said: makingmusic476 said: Even 410k for GTA is poor, given it's reception elsewhere.  And it doesn't compare to the 2+ million Final Fantasy pulls off in North America. Final Fantasy is a 20 year established IP and the unquestioned 'most popular JRPG in America'.  And usually has a marketing budget to compare to Halo or GTAIV. No western game released in Japan compares to a western released Final Fantasy game.  Especially now that SquareEnix relies on the western sales for the bulk of its sales for every Final Fantasy game.

The whole Final Fantasy thing is interesting because if you really think about it, from the mindset of someone living in say the early 90s, you would have never guessed that these games would become popular in the west one day. My early impression of these games as a kid in the early 90s (I didn't even know they were called rpgs until FF7 came along) was negative (I thought turn-based combat and random battles were stupid and pointless. Funny how the Final Fantasy hype machine later on and all my peers talking about how awesome FF7 was changed my perspective. lol). From that perspective, I would have never guessed that a game like this would be popular one day. But somehow, Sony (publisher of game in the west) did it. They were able to sell a game with the same archaic combat that I thought was boring in the early 90s (turn-based, random battles) by selling the cinematic experience of the game, making a huge marketing push with MTV and what not. And we ate it up. It's really hard to believe that it happened.

So considering the FF case, maybe if western games were given a similar push, you might the Japanese warming up to western games, maybe even a FPS game (a genre that is thought to be unmarketable in Japan just like jrpgs were supposedly unmarketable in the west)