@slowmo:
But like amp316, pariz and others wrote, the point is that Natal without holding any controller in your hand ISN'T a complete control system, it ISN'T suitable for any genre, on the contrary by itself is good for a few genres and perfect for even less, inventing new genres wouldn't change the situation, it remains a special purpose device, while Wii's standard controls are general purpose, just thanks to having buttons, triggers, a pad and a stick besides motion control. Sony's Wand + PSEye is less good than Natal for genres like dance games and a little more complete for others, but its controls array isn't completa as Wii's one.
If you add a hand controller to Natal, it becomes a little like a Wand + PSEye evolution.
Obviously, game developers can figure out different sets of gestures suitable to each game, but this means that for each game there are more or less chances to find a satisfying scheme.
In short, Natal can be a possibly very successful special purpose add-on like Wii Balance Board, not a general purpose control like WiiMote + Nunchuck.
Inclunding Natal as standard equipment would make MS consoles more complete in a way that Nintendo could achieve including, for example, Balance Board, but Natal alone wouldn't be anyway a control system with motion detection as complete as Wii's one.
Not being complete enough, it has no chance to be the revolution Wii was.

Natal will be annoying as hell. I can't see any proper games being made on it. It can't be superior to a regular controller or even a Wiimote.

Pickup the latest issue of GamesTM and read the Rare article sometime, that might go someway to actually easing some of the worry people have here.  You're all thinking inside the box, any solution mentioned will get batted down because it doesn't fit your vision of what a game should be.  It can be a revolution if properly implemented.

^^
I don't doubt Rare might be able to make games perfectly taylored to Natal, but this doesn't prove wrong that for whatever games requiring a certain degree of complexity in controls, exceeding what you can command with position of body, head and limbs, a way to track fingers is needed, and Natal hasn't it, unless either its motion detection is furtherly refined or hand controllers are added, making it less revolutionary. Not fulfilling this requirement, it remains niche, refining motion detection up to tracking fingers would make it more expensive, adding hand controllers, besides increasing a little its cost, would make it a lot less revolutionary.

People thinking that Natal will be usefull for traditional genres are wishfull thinking only.

Considering lack of input buttons (only way to input something will be gestures)
lack of any movement input ( good luck walking in place during 5 hours long Call of Duty session)
lack of pointer abilities (camera capable of tracking 1cm movement of finger would put this into way too expensive category)

it's rather obvious that Natal games may make Wii Sports look like core gamer Nirvana in comparision.

^^
It looks like there are some people that just can't accept this, and despite we explained in detail our criticisms or even just simple doubts, even more than once, repeating ourselves, they pretend we aren't giving any arguments to justify them. It's so simple, Natal will be perfect for dance games, talk and move games, whatever they are, and whatever good new genre MS will be able to invent taylored on it, but it can't be general purpose, at least not in its first implementation revealed by MS. If MS adds what it's missing to remove every major shortcoming, it will be able to be a complete input system, right now, unless for unknown reasons MS is omitting infos just to make it look worse, it isn't.

^^
You're still thinking inside the box, don't see anything in your post to make me do anything other than wait for more actual news of Natal to be released. I think its far more irrational for people to hate a product they haven't experienced than to be optimistic over the potential it possesses. I don't see many Microsoft fans on this site wholesale hating on Sony's wand like we have people hating on Natal from the Sony camp.

Not in the sense of an IR pointer like the Wii, no.  But the fact that it captures 3D imagery with IR bursts it can technically use that to aim with say your finger/hand or whatever.

I think the obvious thing with Natal is that this will be for NEW games and experiences not even possible on Wii or PS3 with the wand.  If you want to use Natal with hardcore games, you can still use the controller, or perhaps MS will go the Nintendo route and produce bunches of peripheral controllers like a gun shaped controller or sword shape or something.  The audience Natal is targetting that would work best with JUST Natal is partially the Wii audience but even passed that to the millions and millions of people who don't even play the Wii because they are still intimidated and frustrated or confused with controllers.

@Slowmo... I love how the whole first page was almost entirely Sony and Nintendo fans... and the majority of people here talking are all just Natal haters/doubters from the other competing consoles.

At bolded, that sbecause sony isnt making ludicrous claims abou eplacing remotes, going on jimmy fallon displaying the product, talking up milo like molyneux.....MSFT is more vocal and wants the light on its product it gets it.

As for th eabove posters saying the games and ideas people are throwing out arent realistic, i agree. People had huge ideas for the wii balance board even for FPS and all genres for jump etc. and its primarily for wii sports, ea active, snowboarding.

Its going to be games like we saw at E3, mini party games that require no depth and game like we see on PSN where the user appears on screen to interact. I guess its all imo, but i really think a lot of people just dont understand what MSFT is trying to do. They arent trying to expand on the base that posts here or buys halo, they trying to tap a different market.

Burnout was used as an example to silence the base as much as possible, honestly does anyone who wants natal really consider playing burnout with natal after seeig that? If you say yes, you have never played burnout, im confident in that. Its going to be brick breaker games, imo.

you can play eye of judgement with natal xD