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Forums - General - Something that has been bothering me about the Fort Hood shooting coverage.

NKAJ on 16 November 2009

Yeah people can pull qoutes from the Quran ,Bible or whatever all day long...its peoples interpretation of those books that leads to relgion-related killings.Christians used to use the bible as an exscuse to kill non-christians for quite some time.Thankfully it isnt quite like that today.However middle-eastern society isnt as open in general and some countries actually kill people for just being homosexual and things like that.I m not saying they all are but sometimes i see these muslims on the street having all their "death to those who insult islam" posters out because of a little cartoon and how their so "offended" and yet at the same time you see pictures of them wearing clothes saying "god bless hitler" (for killing the jews).Im sure the vast majority of muslims are normal everyday people but its just that tiny vocal minority that always stir things up.In Britain they come to our country ,enjoy our benefits and then call our soldiers cowards ...im sorry but when they do something as openly downright disgusting and horrible as that i really fell like punching some of them in the face.I wont say any religon is worse than the other but sometimes it really can be a bad influence on people



"They will know heghan belongs to the helghast"

"England expects that everyman will do his duty"

"we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

 

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TheRealMafoo on 16 November 2009
ultima said:

You're trying to deny that this is an act of violence whence it's the violence in it that's bothering you. 

What bothers me is we are not recognizing it for what it is. We need to realize this is a response to our actions in Afghanistan. We need to prepare for more of them. Thinking this is a one off that we don't have to worry about happening again because the guy was just crazy, is a mistake.

And this happened in Texas. He will die.



TheRealMafoo on 16 November 2009

@burning_phoneix

All those quotes talk about Christians and Jews. I am an Atheist. How does your book say you should interact with me?



mrstickball on 16 November 2009

I'd argue that when it comes to religious extremism 'The proof is in the pudding'.

When was the last time a Christian took a gun and some hand grenades and blew a place in in the name of Jesus?

Somehow, just somehow, I don't think its as often as Muslims do in the name of Allah. That's why there's a problem. You can argue that they are extremists doing this (and I agree), but it seems there are far more extremists in Islam than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

burning_phoneix on 16 November 2009
mrstickball said:
I'd argue that when it comes to religious extremism 'The proof is in the pudding'.

When was the last time a Christian took a gun and some hand grenades and blew a place in in the name of Jesus?

Somehow, just somehow, I don't think its as often as Muslims do in the name of Allah. That's why there's a problem. You can argue that they are extremists doing this (and I agree), but it seems there are far more extremists in Islam than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion.

I believe abortion clinic bombings and the like.

 

But it's true, Muslims do this more often but to squarely place it on religon is a misnomer and completely ignores the fact that most Muslim countries are poor and opressed. Usually with a dictatorial goverment supported by a foreign (usually western) power. It goes without saying that if you are prosperous and free you would turn away from extremism. Same reason places like Africa are fucked up.

 

Though a fun fact: The single group with the most suicide bombings isn't Muslim but the Tamil Tigers (who aren't a religous group btw)

 

All those quotes talk about Christians and Jews. I am an Atheist. How does your book say you should interact with me?

 

Since Atheism wasn't all that prevalent, The Quran rarely if ever speaks about atheists.

 

I good, someone with an actual Quran.  I'll leave the rest of this to you then.

 

HEY! Don't abadon me here! :(



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mrstickball on 16 November 2009

burning_phoenix-

How many abortion clinic bombings have there been in the past 20 years? By those that claimed religion was their motivation for doing it?



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Zucas on 16 November 2009

Well I do agree with that sentiment. It really is an "act of war" but still an "act of terror". But the reason they refrain from mentioning the first is because that is insinuating that war isn't one sided with "good" and "bad". Media loves to play off those themes with civilians, "their side" and rogues affected as good with the opponents being inherently bad.

This isntance would insinuate that this isn't the case at all and then all would not be well. What people need to start understanding is war is hell and there is no good side and there is no bad side. There are only those who suffer and get destroyed and those who are hidden from it. The war is taking a toll on many on both sides.



TheRealMafoo on 16 November 2009
Zucas said:
Well I do agree with that sentiment. It really is an "act of war" but still an "act of terror".  

I agree with the rest of your post, but I would not call this Terror. Terror is when you commit a violent act for the purpose of scaring people. This was not that. His goal was to eliminate members of the US military that he felt would kill Muslims if allowed to enter the theater.

It was a strategic action, against a military target, with a tactical objective in mind. That's not terror.



Reasonable on 16 November 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Reasonable said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ultima said:
Can I get a short summary of the story please?

There are so many stories on it, that it's hard to find one that's a good summary. Just google Fort Hood Shooting

Here is a quick synopsis of it:

 

A US Major entered Fort Hood recruiting center, killed 13, wounding 35 or so others.

 

He was a muslim who was against the war. he has on several occasions remarked about how we were on the wrong side of what's right in this war. He was about to be sent to the middle east, and decided to make his stand before he went.

 

He had written on a few blogs about how he does not think suicide bombers are the same as people who are suicidal, as most suicide bombers think that if they can take out members of the opposition who one day might kill there own, they are saving lives in what they do. He equated it to jumping on a grenade to save your fellow comrades.

If he's not clearly representing a country or the declared wishes of its leaders then it can't really be called an act of war.  To be honest, from what I've read, sounds like the guy was acting in a manner that, from a certain viewpoint (i.e. Western) was based on a mix of physcological problems and a self initiated act linked into ongoing propoganda by terrorist organizations.

Personally, the real flaw I see in US response here goes right back to Bush declaring a 'War on Terror'.  It shows a country and approach built around nations, clearly defined foes and obvious understanding of a winning/losing position.  This isn't the case, and you're looking at people acting for religious/conviction reasons with no real state behind them, many with issues that make them ideal fodder for this situation, and no clear winning strategy.

Nasty act though, no doubt about that, whatever drove him.

 

I should have used a different term. "act of war" has political meaning outside what I meant to say.

 

For example, if China invaded the US, took over my town, I (along with thousands of other Americans), would grab a gun, and fight back. We would not be told we need to do this, and we would not be acting under government orders.

 

I would consider my actions an act of war. War was declared on something I felt strong enough to defend, and I took it upon myself to stand up for what I thought was right.

 

Like this, if China had not invaded my town, I would not have been driven to take such action. Now, if I was effective enough to kill 13 and wound 35 before the Chinese caught me, I would expect them to kill me (like I would like to have done with this man), but I would hope China was smart enough to realize it's a reaction to there invasion, and not just label me a nut job.

Yeah, but that's my point.  If China, Russia, etc. invade it's War and you know where you stand.  War really defines conflict between countries (although in the past there have been religious war's these tended to split across countries as well).  He acted for a religion and a loose collection of countries without any actual backing other than implicit.

It simply can't be an act of War  unless I'm missing something.   To take another point you made well, about fighting back, who exactly would you fight back against in this case?  See, existing notions of states and conflict don't fit very well.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

ultima on 16 November 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
ultima said:

You're trying to deny that this is an act of violence whence it's the violence in it that's bothering you. 

What bothers me is we are not recognizing it for what it is. We need to realize this is a response to our actions in Afghanistan. We need to prepare for more of them. Thinking this is a one off that we don't have to worry about happening again because the guy was just crazy, is a mistake.

And this happened in Texas. He will die.

Some people are crazy enough to do shit like this, some are a little more sane. If something like this happens again, it will be done by another unstable nutjob.

What exactly are you trying to say? Why should this be called an act of war and why does it even matter what it's called? It's over, and if it happens again it's because there are mental people in the world. Americans don't need to be paranoid and consider everything an act of war.