By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Will Republican Victories Lead Back to Dillinger / James days?

txrattlesnake said:

     Well, it looks like the Republicans took last night's elections, and it looks like they might be getting the momentum back to retake the White House in 2012 due to a strong grass roots campaign against Obama and his policies.

 

     But, if anyone is looking for the Republicans to make any great changes for the better for the majority of citizens in this country once they get back in office, then I highly suspect they are wrong.  The Republicans will try to do what they've always done.  Favor the rich and not do anything much at all to help out the majority of the citizens -- those people making under $30,000 a year to become any better off than they are.  At best, they will try to get Bush's policies (that almost destroyed the country) up and running again and at worst they will actually carry a vendetta against the poorer citizens that helped to get Obama elected.

 

Well, I agree I'm not sure the Republicans will be much better than the Dems...But as far as favoring the rich...what the hell are you smoking. By giving the rich tax cuts and loopholes, they give businesses a chance to flourish. And if the business is doing well, you will still have a job. Have you ever been employed by a poor man? I know I havn't...and if you really want to "favor" the poor, you are only killing their golden goose...the rich.The libs have done more to hamper REAL growth in this country it's amazing we are still able to function. DESPITE most of Bush's policies, our country is in shambles. may I remind you that this whole banking fiasco is due to Clinton's policies that the libs LOVE to push...infact, Obama is just amplifying them. So, ten or fifteen years down the road, if these policies stay in place, mark my words, we WILL see another housing bubble burst.  

 

     One thing we know is that the free enterprise system might be nice in theory, but it doesn't work in reality because most businesses and companies have policies or political structures within themselves to keep most employees from reaching the top and that are heavily in favor of bootlickers, family members, and cronies of those at the top ever being the ones that make it very far in the companies.  Most company health insurance policies at low paying jobs will hardly cover the most routine surgeries and not even begin to pay for any catastrophic illnesses.

Hate to break it to you, but it is governmental regulation, and frivolous lawsuits that are hampering business...and that includes the health insurance sector. The governemnt is the reason the private sector is broken.  

     In many ways, The Republicans get by with what they do because they almost have an ingrained sense that the masses of the poor are placid and lazy and will always go along with whatever is going on in society.

What? That goes against all logic. Why in the world would a party openly insult the majority of voter and still be able to retain power? 

 

     However, this hasn't always been true.  There have been times in our country when the masses of the poor have stood up for themselves. The Union and Company Coalminer Wars.  Times when men like John Dillinger, Jesse and Frank James, Pretty Boy Floyd, and people like Bonnie and Clyde were seen as heroes by many.

Unions are DESTROYING our economy. They are old, outdated, and unneeded. You have numerous laws to protect workers, you have the media that just loves to report on incidents in the workplace, you have the better business bureau, and you have a plethora of money grubbing lawyer salivating over the chance to sue an employer for wronging an employee. Why would you possibly need a union?   

 

      Do you think Republican victory and continuation of old practices that keep the rich rich and the poor poor will wake the poor up this time and lead to the same type of climate in the country that produced the legendary outlaws mentioned above?

 

 

 

  

 



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

Around the Network
mrstickball said:

That doesn't make socialized medicine good. That makes the American system very bad.

I already explained why America's healthcare is so bad (private profit incentives), so I wont repeat myself.

The Yankees aren't good, its just that the other 29 MLB teams are so bad.



Fame_Mcswagg said:
About healthcare size doesn't mean as much as price. And the fact is the price in the US is out of control. And as far as quality is concerned just look at the numbers. Countries like england and France have a higher life expectancy, lower infant mortality rate, and overall a healthier populous.

Not actually true.

1) Life expectancies are higher.  This isn't completly related to health though.  A perfectly healthy man could be stabbed to death with a knfe and it counts to life expectancy.

2) Infant mortality rate is higher in the US because we calculate it differently.  If something is born, and then dies at a young age... it's considered an Infant.  In Europeon countries babies have to be a certain size or weight before they are considered babies.  If a baby is born way to small to live it is not reflected in Infant mortality rates.

3) Healthiness is a very hard thing to measure.  When it comes to 5 year survival rates for the main 5 killers of people however... the US has better survival rates then most Europeon countries including the UK.

Honestly when it comes to health... healthcare is less important then you think... so is what you eat.  Culture... culture can mean as much if not more then both.

Two different countries, with IDENTICAL healthcare programs and demographics can have compleltly different results based on culture when it comes to things like life expectancy and diseases.  Which makes any arguement about different countries healthcare largely pointless.  Example.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/outliers.htm



ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:
mrstickball said:
ManusJustus said:


An example of this is healthcare. Not only does government provided healthcare cost less, but government healthcare is also extremely helpful for business. In Europe, a business doenst have to worry about health benefits for employees, but in America all employers pay heavily into benefits, so much so that once flagbearers of our economy like Ford cannot compete with other countries auto industries because they pay so much in health benefits and retirement.

Could you give some data to support this claim?

See the link I posted, it is a list of total healthcare funding (public and private) per country.  The United States is spending way more for healthcare than countires similar to us, like Europe.  Quality of healthcare is debatable, but no one could argue that America's healthcare is three times better than the United Kingdom (US pays three times more than they UK).

American businesses pay a large portion of their labor costs in benefits.  Ford, for example, owes around $50 billion in benefits to its employees.  Having the government provide benefits would be a simple cost cutting measure for Ford, effectively lowering its labor cost.

There are no countries similar to us.  We are far bigger then any other country out there. 

Additionally, our government already spends something like 6% of GDP on healthcare on what few people it covers.  If you think there is much savings to be had there... your mistaken.  The US government nearly spends what the UK government does per GDP on healthcare... right now.

There is a reason why the success of government programs seems to correlate with the size of the country.  The smaller your country, the better nationalized healthcare works.

Size does not matter in terms of healthcare (and many other economic factors), the only things that matters in that regard is urban verse rural.  Obvioulsy, a country like Luxembourg or Singapore is urban and cannot be compared with a country like the United States or the United Kingdom, but countries that have similar urban and rural characteristics can be compared with each other.

Though you can compare Luxembourg to New York City, and not suprisingly they are similar in many regards.

No.  Size really does matter.   We've hat this argument before... however yes size matters a LOT when it comes to providing globalized healthcare.  It needs more layers of bueracracy as you need more and more layers of overseers. To prevent fraud and make sure people are doing their jobs correctly.  For example in the UK system decisions are made on a local level of about 150 healtchare councils.  These councils need to be watched by people.

Now say you've got over 1,000 healthcare councils.  You need like 7 times the people watching them unless you want to overwork them, additionally you need 7 times the people watching them... and you eventually need one guy at top.  So your going to end up adding layers.  With higher salaries.

Any international comparisons of healthcare systems are completly assinine though.  Look at the link in my post directly above this to realize why.

It's funny how research done a decade ago can still be ignored by people.  Only interpopulation healthcare studies hold any merit.



A GOP victory in 2012 would just continue the cycle.

To be honest I just think the entire American political system is aged and broken. It's completely dominated by two parties, lobbies are too powerful, and the actual electoral system is broken.

I wonder what America would be like under some form of MMP?



Around the Network
mrstickball said:
Also, could you, TX, advise which Bush-era laws nearly ruined the country?

Okay, let's say you're making $8.00 an hour and you have to drive eighty miles a day roundtrip to work.  Now if you are paying $4.00 to $5.00 dollars per gallon to drive something like an older model Cadillac to work and paying $20.00 each week out of your paycheck for company health insurance (that won't even pay for a colonoscopy, bloodwork, and a ct scan when you need it) combined with other bills your $8.00 an hour isn't going to go very far.

 

Now you could say move closer to work.  But what if the cheapest apartment you can get in that city costs over $400.00 a month because they want to keep the riffraff from surrounding counties from living there, then how are you supposed to eat for that month?

 

Obama's plan is supposed to be to get everybody free health care which should allieviate having to pay for company healthplans that won't cover jack.  And since foreigners like Obama more than Bush (and Obama isn't trying to help his rich oil buddies get richer), then you haven't seen gas cost over $3.00 since Obama has been in office.

 

 



Kasz216 said:

Infant mortality rate is higher in the US because we calculate it differently.  If something is born, and then dies at a young age... it's considered an Infant.  In Europeon countries babies have to be a certain size or weight before they are considered babies.  If a baby is born way to small to live it is not reflected in Infant mortality rates.

Where did you get that idea from?  Here are the CIA World Fact Book infant mortality rates, without your obscure samping methods.

This entry gives the number of deaths of infants under one year old in a given year per 1,000 live births in the same year; included is the total death rate, and deaths by sex, male and female. This rate is often used as an indicator of the level of health in a country.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

 



ironman said:
txrattlesnake said:

     Well, it looks like the Republicans took last night's elections, and it looks like they might be getting the momentum back to retake the White House in 2012 due to a strong grass roots campaign against Obama and his policies.

 

     But, if anyone is looking for the Republicans to make any great changes for the better for the majority of citizens in this country once they get back in office, then I highly suspect they are wrong.  The Republicans will try to do what they've always done.  Favor the rich and not do anything much at all to help out the majority of the citizens -- those people making under $30,000 a year to become any better off than they are.  At best, they will try to get Bush's policies (that almost destroyed the country) up and running again and at worst they will actually carry a vendetta against the poorer citizens that helped to get Obama elected.

 

Well, I agree I'm not sure the Republicans will be much better than the Dems...But as far as favoring the rich...what the hell are you smoking. By giving the rich tax cuts and loopholes, they give businesses a chance to flourish. And if the business is doing well, you will still have a job. Have you ever been employed by a poor man? I know I havn't...and if you really want to "favor" the poor, you are only killing their golden goose...the rich.The libs have done more to hamper REAL growth in this country it's amazing we are still able to function. DESPITE most of Bush's policies, our country is in shambles. may I remind you that this whole banking fiasco is due to Clinton's policies that the libs LOVE to push...infact, Obama is just amplifying them. So, ten or fifteen years down the road, if these policies stay in place, mark my words, we WILL see another housing bubble burst.  

Yeah, but if I'm working for a company like a fast food restaurant, and I've been there over two years and hoping to move up to a manager position which would pay prettily decently, but the supervisors and management have their kids working there that they would much rather see become managers in the company despite all the special things I do there to work harder than anyone else, then that's an example of the rich and higher ranking people in the company keeping me from moving up from the $12,000 to $15,000 income bracket to the $25,000 + income bracket. 

 

 

 

     One thing we know is that the free enterprise system might be nice in theory, but it doesn't work in reality because most businesses and companies have policies or political structures within themselves to keep most employees from reaching the top and that are heavily in favor of bootlickers, family members, and cronies of those at the top ever being the ones that make it very far in the companies.  Most company health insurance policies at low paying jobs will hardly cover the most routine surgeries and not even begin to pay for any catastrophic illnesses.

Hate to break it to you, but it is governmental regulation, and frivolous lawsuits that are hampering business...and that includes the health insurance sector. The governemnt is the reason the private sector is broken.

When I'm paying $20.00 a week out of a $160 to $180.00 check, I expect to receive something for it.  Like Obama and the Bible say taking care of the poor is a right.

 

  

     In many ways, The Republicans get by with what they do because they almost have an ingrained sense that the masses of the poor are placid and lazy and will always go along with whatever is going on in society.

What? That goes against all logic. Why in the world would a party openly insult the majority of voter and still be able to retain power? 

 Have you ever heard of psychological studies into such things as cognitive dissonance and Milgrim Studies that show that most of the time those lower down social totem poles will almost always go unthinkingly with what those higher-up the totem pole instruct them to do?

     However, this hasn't always been true.  There have been times in our country when the masses of the poor have stood up for themselves. The Union and Company Coalminer Wars.  Times when men like John Dillinger, Jesse and Frank James, Pretty Boy Floyd, and people like Bonnie and Clyde were seen as heroes by many.

Unions are DESTROYING our economy. They are old, outdated, and unneeded. You have numerous laws to protect workers, you have the media that just loves to report on incidents in the workplace, you have the better business bureau, and you have a plethora of money grubbing lawyer salivating over the chance to sue an employer for wronging an employee. Why would you possibly need a union?   

Unions worked when they were needed to, and sometimes there comes a time when citizens say we're not going to take this crap anymore.  Frequently they work better together to accomplish these goals than separately.  Dillinger and the James gangs got gunned down in the end (even though Jesse James was shot in the back by a coward), but the Unions did accomplish most of their goals. 

 

      Do you think Republican victory and continuation of old practices that keep the rich rich and the poor poor will wake the poor up this time and lead to the same type of climate in the country that produced the legendary outlaws mentioned above?

 

 

 

 

 

 



Kasz216 said:

No.  Size really does matter.   We've hat this argument before... however yes size matters a LOT when it comes to providing globalized healthcare.  It needs more layers of bueracracy as you need more and more layers of overseers. To prevent fraud and make sure people are doing their jobs correctly.  For example in the UK system decisions are made on a local level of about 150 healtchare councils.  These councils need to be watched by people.

Now say you've got over 1,000 healthcare councils.  You need like 7 times the people watching them unless you want to overwork them, additionally you need 7 times the people watching them... and you eventually need one guy at top.  So your going to end up adding layers.  With higher salaries.

Any international comparisons of healthcare systems are completly assinine though.  Look at the link in my post directly above this to realize why.

It's funny how research done a decade ago can still be ignored by people.  Only interpopulation healthcare studies hold any merit.

Again, size doesn't matter, urban and rural ratios matter.

What you are arguing for is that we could never compare different locations.  If we cant compare the United States to the United Kingdom, we cant compare Ohio to Pennsylvania or New York City to Boston.  Of course, no qualitative comparison (like health or well-being) is exact, but comparing like places is still appropriate and helps one reach accurate conclusions.  Quantitative comparisons go much farther, and here your logic would not allow you to say something so easily understandable as America is rich and Nigeria is poor, because they are in different places and have different sizes we cant compare them.  I'm sure a Nigerian would be happy to trade you places, while you wonder which country is the better one to live in.

You also forget to mention that as size increaseses, relative overhead costs decreases.  This is referred to as economics of scale.  There is a reason why Wal-Mart can out-compete smaller retailers and while still maintaining huge profits.  In government, this is even more relevant because top administrators are not paid high wages, for instance a level I Federal Executive (Secretary of State) only makes $200,000 a year, thats less than what most doctors in the United States make.  The president only makes $500,000 a year.  Compare that to the salaries of CEOs, where $50 million would nt compare with top earners.



One thing I have seen time and time again, in several countries, is established political parties gaining power and then using their power to repay the companies and special interest groups that got them elected; and the more established a political party becomes, and the longer they’re in power for, the more corrupt they become and the more they believe they’re "entitled to their entitlements". There are countless examples of this in Canadian politics, and this week two fairly large ones have been brought back to the forefront from the previous (Liberal) government; the long gun registry which was supposed to cost $2 Million but cost $2 Billion and was never audited correctly, and there is little evidence that it has done anything; and the awarding of a 10 year exclusive vaccine production contract worth (nearly) $350 Million to a single company who can't produce enough vaccine for all of Canada, and it appears that the only reason they were awarded this contract was they gave the Liberal Party a one time $56 Million donation the year the contract was awarded.

The difference between the US government and most other western democracies is that Americans have a two party system and (unlike other countries) they have no choice but to vote for one of two corrupt political parties. In almost every other democracy around the world, if they had political parties half as corrupt as the Democrats or Repbulicans several grass-roots parties would form and would win an election and gain power (possibly by creating a coalition). When a major party loses power it "goes into the wilderness" and only returns if it restructures and eliminates corruption so that people can trust them again.