By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Yeesh, some people really do live in the dark ages. This is abuse.

dtewi on 23 September 2009
outlawauron said:
dtewi said:
outlawauron said:
dtewi said:
outlawauron said:
dtewi said:
outlawauron said:
There you go! Keep up the insults!

I'm only fearful or indoctrinated! Thanks dtewi!

It's pretty useless to explain it to you, so I won't bother.

I am not insulting, I am stating what are probably the two reason for belief in Christianity.

Many people do not follow anything blindly, they want to know what is happening.

Explain to me your reason to be a Christian. I fail to see two logical reasons beyond those two.

Yes you are being insulting. It would be like me saying that people are only atheist because they're mad at their parents or they just want to be different to get attention. Entirely stupid based on a few people I know.

Do not sidetrack the argument! You clearly feel affronted, but what I said was not insulting but too different for your tastes.

You're only trying to throw the debate off tangent because you have no rebuttal to my argument, right? If you did, you would have obviously answered by now.

I said I wasn't going to argue with you since it's useless. I was just saying that what you said was insulting.

*yawn*

I do believe that you can't think of another reason for believing in Christianity hence proving my point.

And because you can't think of another possible reason for someone to believe is why I won't debate. If you aren't open to the idea that there is another reason to believe in God outside of fear or indoctrination, nothing I say will be useful.

The point is to debate my idea. You think you know one. I can't think of another. Why don't you post it?



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

Around the Network
FootballFan on 23 September 2009

My opinion on this is simple, people are scared of the unkown and use God as a way of filling in their doubts. Quite easy to understand. As science is proving many theories of religion to be incorrect certain religions are begining to lose "followers".

No that the religions are loosing numbers as the worlds population is increasing to rapidly for that to occur, but, as a proportion/percentage less people in rich developed countries are attending a place of worship.



Orca_Azure on 23 September 2009

I guess they still believe in the phrase "pray the gay away"

If that worked, then adam lambert would be straight- millions of teen girls were praying that he'd be straight.



deathgod33 on 23 September 2009
dtewi said:
This is why I hate Christianity

Those demented extremists need to be beaten senseless. How dare your hair is brown! We should beat the shit out of you until it is blonde! That is how ridiculous it is.

I can't even eloquently convey the disgust I'm feeling.

doesn't mean you have to hate ALL religions. not all religions have adherents this dumb.



 

 

 

 

mrstickball on 23 September 2009
dtewi said:

I'm not going to start insulting your beliefs so I'm going to ignore much of the content that responding to would make me sound like a complete ass.

There is no evidence of God. Maybe those are peoples' consciences telling them what to do. Their conscience may have been weighing heavy on them telling them the right thing to do, and then they falsely convince themselves that it was God. The conscience isn't God.

And don't lie saying that fear or indoctrination weren't why the majority signed up for the church. You are putting up your own personal experiences which mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. And let's not forget that's it your perception of what was happening and you couldn't see into the minds of the children and figure out their reasoning. I've yet to see you put up a decent reason for belief. A third reason may be present, conformity, and a fourth, false proofs, but these may be stretchting it a little.

Care to offer any empirical insights as to how fear and indoctrination are the 2 primary reasons for people signing up for church?

I have a few studies here:

Top 13 Reasons that Unchurched People Choose a Church
(research conducted by Ranier)

  1. 90% - Pastor/Preaching
  2. 88% - Doctrines
  3. 49% - Friendliness of Members
  4. 42% - Other Issues
  5. 41% - Someone Church Witnessed to Me
  6. 38% - Family Member
  7. 37% - Sensed God’s Presence/Atmosphere of Church
  8. 25% - Relationship Other than Family Member
  9. 25% - Sunday School Class
  10. 25% - Children’s/Youth Ministry
  11. 12% - Other Groups/Ministries
  12. 11% - Worship Style/Music
  13. 7% - Location

Top 9 Reasons that Church-Attenders Choose a Church
(research conducted by the Barna Group in 1999)

  1. 58% - Doctrine/Theology
  2. 53% - People Caring for Each Other
  3. 52% - Preaching
  4. 45% - Friendliness
  5. 45% - Children’s Programs
  6. 43% - Helping the Poor
  7. 36% - Denomination
  8. 35% - Like the Pastor
  9. 26% - Sunday School

Top 6 Things that Keep the Formerly Unchurched Active in the Church
(research conducted by Ranier)

  1. 62% - Ministry Involvement
  2. 55% - Sunday School
  3. 54% - Obedience to God
  4. 49% - Fellowship of Members
  5. 38% - Pastor/Preaching
  6. 14% - Worship Services

Here's one from Gallup concerning why people do and do not attend church:

#1 Reason Why People Attend Church

  • 23% for spiritual growth and guidance
  • 20% keeps me grounded/guided
  • 15% it’s my faith
  • 15% to worship God
  • 13% the fellowship of other members (the community)
  • 12% believe in God/religion
  • 12% brought up that way (tradition)

#1 Reason Why People Do Not Attend Church

  • 24% don’t agree with organized religion/what they preach
  • 21% don’t have time/don’t get around to it
  • 16% don’t believe in going to church
  • 10% don’t believe in God (atheist)
  • 9% don’t have a church I connect with
  • 6% I’m lazy
  • 3% church wants/asks too much money
  • 2% poor health/disabled
  • 1% family members are different religions

On poll #2, I see indoctrination being the answer given the least, at 12%. It's certainly quantifiable, but certainly not a large factor among respondants, is it? I don't see 'fear of hell' being very popular on the polls, do you?

I'd like to see what surveys you could present to argue validly that people are being coerced into church because of hell or indoctrination. My polls have proven otherwise from very repudable sources.

 

#1 Reason Why People Attend Church

  • 23% for spiritual growth and guidance
  • 20% keeps me grounded/guided
  • 15% it’s my faith
  • 15% to worship God
  • 13% the fellowship of other members (the community)
  • 12% believe in God/religion
  • 12% brought up that way (tradition)

#1 Reason Why People Do Not Attend Church

  • 24% don’t agree with organized religion/what they preach
  • 21% don’t have time/don’t get around to it
  • 16% don’t believe in going to church
  • 10% don’t believe in God (atheist)
  • 9% don’t have a church I connect with
  • 6% I’m lazy
  • 3% church wants/asks too much money
  • 2% poor health/disabled
  • 1% family members are different religions


Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Around the Network
dtewi on 23 September 2009
mrstickball said:
dtewi said:

I'm not going to start insulting your beliefs so I'm going to ignore much of the content that responding to would make me sound like a complete ass.

There is no evidence of God. Maybe those are peoples' consciences telling them what to do. Their conscience may have been weighing heavy on them telling them the right thing to do, and then they falsely convince themselves that it was God. The conscience isn't God.

And don't lie saying that fear or indoctrination weren't why the majority signed up for the church. You are putting up your own personal experiences which mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. And let's not forget that's it your perception of what was happening and you couldn't see into the minds of the children and figure out their reasoning. I've yet to see you put up a decent reason for belief. A third reason may be present, conformity, and a fourth, false proofs, but these may be stretchting it a little.

Care to offer any empirical insights as to how fear and indoctrination are the 2 primary reasons for people signing up for church?

I have a few studies here:

Top 13 Reasons that Unchurched People Choose a Church
(research conducted by Ranier)

  1. 90% - Pastor/Preaching
  2. 88% - Doctrines
  3. 49% - Friendliness of Members
  4. 42% - Other Issues
  5. 41% - Someone Church Witnessed to Me
  6. 38% - Family Member
  7. 37% - Sensed God’s Presence/Atmosphere of Church
  8. 25% - Relationship Other than Family Member
  9. 25% - Sunday School Class
  10. 25% - Children’s/Youth Ministry
  11. 12% - Other Groups/Ministries
  12. 11% - Worship Style/Music
  13. 7% - Location

Top 9 Reasons that Church-Attenders Choose a Church
(research conducted by the Barna Group in 1999)

  1. 58% - Doctrine/Theology
  2. 53% - People Caring for Each Other
  3. 52% - Preaching
  4. 45% - Friendliness
  5. 45% - Children’s Programs
  6. 43% - Helping the Poor
  7. 36% - Denomination
  8. 35% - Like the Pastor
  9. 26% - Sunday School

Top 6 Things that Keep the Formerly Unchurched Active in the Church
(research conducted by Ranier)

  1. 62% - Ministry Involvement
  2. 55% - Sunday School
  3. 54% - Obedience to God
  4. 49% - Fellowship of Members
  5. 38% - Pastor/Preaching
  6. 14% - Worship Services

Here's one from Gallup concerning why people do and do not attend church:

#1 Reason Why People Attend Church

  • 23% for spiritual growth and guidance
  • 20% keeps me grounded/guided
  • 15% it’s my faith
  • 15% to worship God
  • 13% the fellowship of other members (the community)
  • 12% believe in God/religion
  • 12% brought up that way (tradition)

#1 Reason Why People Do Not Attend Church

  • 24% don’t agree with organized religion/what they preach
  • 21% don’t have time/don’t get around to it
  • 16% don’t believe in going to church
  • 10% don’t believe in God (atheist)
  • 9% don’t have a church I connect with
  • 6% I’m lazy
  • 3% church wants/asks too much money
  • 2% poor health/disabled
  • 1% family members are different religions

On poll #2, I see indoctrination being the answer given the least, at 12%. It's certainly quantifiable, but certainly not a large factor among respondants, is it? I don't see 'fear of hell' being very popular on the polls, do you?

I'd like to see what surveys you could present to argue validly that people are being coerced into church because of hell or indoctrination. My polls have proven otherwise from very repudable sources.

 

#1 Reason Why People Attend Church

  • 23% for spiritual growth and guidance
  • 20% keeps me grounded/guided
  • 15% it’s my faith
  • 15% to worship God
  • 13% the fellowship of other members (the community)
  • 12% believe in God/religion
  • 12% brought up that way (tradition)

#1 Reason Why People Do Not Attend Church

  • 24% don’t agree with organized religion/what they preach
  • 21% don’t have time/don’t get around to it
  • 16% don’t believe in going to church
  • 10% don’t believe in God (atheist)
  • 9% don’t have a church I connect with
  • 6% I’m lazy
  • 3% church wants/asks too much money
  • 2% poor health/disabled
  • 1% family members are different religions

What's the point of the first two polls? If I said I didn't like Burger King, why would you post the reasons to choose a Burger King restaurant?

Polls 1, 2, 3 and 5 are basically irrelevant to this discussion.

Poll #4: People were asked to give multiple responses.

Also, I didn't mean CONTINUE to believe which Poll 4 seems to deal with, I mean that people started to BELIEVE in Christianity out of those two reasons. You're saying why they continue to believe, I'm saying why they start. Would you care to find a poll that shows why people START believing?



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

mrstickball on 23 September 2009
dtewi said:

What's the point of the first two polls? If I said I didn't like Burger King, why would you post the reasons to choose a Burger King restaurant?

Polls 1, 2, 3 and 5 are basically irrelevant to this discussion.

Poll #4: People were asked to give multiple responses.

Also, I didn't mean CONTINUE to believe which Poll 4 seems to deal with, I mean that people started to BELIEVE in Christianity out of those two reasons. You're saying why they continue to believe, I'm saying why they start. Would you care to find a poll that shows why people START believing?

You argued that 'Fear and Indoctrination are why people signed up for church'. I gave you studies concerning why people went to church.

As for why people start believing:

1. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (28.6%)
2. The experience of God in everyday life (20.6%)
3. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (10.3%)
4. The Bible says so (9.8%)
5. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (8.2%)

And the six most common answers given to the question Why do you think other people believe in God?:

1. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (26.3%)
2. Religious people have been raised to believe in God (22.4%)
3. The experience of God in everyday life (16.2%)
4. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (13.0%)
5. Fear death and the unknown (9.1%)
6. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (6.0%)

Now, if you have any other polls and surveys expressing that fear and indoctrination are the core components of a belief in God, I'd love for you to share them. Afterall, your aguing why people become Christians.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

dtewi on 23 September 2009
mrstickball said:
dtewi said:

What's the point of the first two polls? If I said I didn't like Burger King, why would you post the reasons to choose a Burger King restaurant?

Polls 1, 2, 3 and 5 are basically irrelevant to this discussion.

Poll #4: People were asked to give multiple responses.

Also, I didn't mean CONTINUE to believe which Poll 4 seems to deal with, I mean that people started to BELIEVE in Christianity out of those two reasons. You're saying why they continue to believe, I'm saying why they start. Would you care to find a poll that shows why people START believing?

You argued that 'Fear and Indoctrination are why people signed up for church'. I gave you studies concerning why people went to church.

As for why people start believing:

1. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (28.6%)
2. The experience of God in everyday life (20.6%)
3. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (10.3%)
4. The Bible says so (9.8%)
5. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (8.2%)

And the six most common answers given to the question Why do you think other people believe in God?:

1. Belief in God is comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life (26.3%)
2. Religious people have been raised to believe in God (22.4%)
3. The experience of God in everyday life (16.2%)
4. Just because / faith / the need to believe in something (13.0%)
5. Fear death and the unknown (9.1%)
6. The good design / natural beauty / perfection / complexity of the world or universe (6.0%)

Now, if you have any other polls and surveys expressing that fear and indoctrination are the core components of a belief in God, I'd love for you to share them. Afterall, your aguing why people become Christians.

Honestly, four of those reasons are piss-poor. The first one is odd. They say that is why most people believe in it but those people think that it is the least used reason?

2) I believe that God has never appeared in anyone's life.

3) Basically, they don't want to be overwhelmed by the unknown. I believe that is a very good point brought by someone else, not wanting fear of the unknown.

4) The Bible Says So? That is REALLY circular logic.

5) Coorelates with two.

1) I believe that this is one of the worse reasons. Because the world is so complex, something created it? I would like to see the chances of a planet like Earth being created.

For the second poll, 1, 2, 3, and 5 all support my ideas. Since you believe in God, you won't see eye to eye on my ideas about 4 and 6 though.



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you

Kasz216 on 23 September 2009

I think you just don't like going to church Dtwei.

I don't know a kid your age who didn't hate their religion because it wasted a good 4th of their weekend and they missed half the saturday morning cartoon shows.

Well except me.... but i didn't have to go to church as a kid. I was raised without a religion. Parents didn't want to force one on me.



dtewi on 23 September 2009
Kasz216 said:
I think you just don't like going to church Dtwei.

I don't know a kid your age who didn't hate their religion because it wasted a good 4th of their weekend and they missed half the saturday morning cartoon shows.

Well except me.... but i didn't have to go to church as a kid. I was raised without a religion. Parents didn't want to force one on me.

Yeah, I think you're right. What would I ever do without my precious Yu-Gi-Oh!?



Kimi wa ne tashika ni ano toki watashi no soba ni ita

Itsudatte itsudatte itsudatte

Sugu yoko de waratteita

Nakushitemo torimodosu kimi wo

I will never leave you