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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

Final-Fan said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

No, it's true.  Part of the reason many observations are needed to make a claim is just to test one's own understanding of said observations.  One observation contrary to an established idea is not going to disprove it because you don't necessarily trust what you think you've observed.

But that's not even the point:  back to my example with Rath.  We observe that matter cannot be created physically, and we also observe that it was created.  Notice that the latter is not a contrary observation of the former.  A contrary one would be that we observed matter being created physically.  In this example, that is not the case.

I would also respectfully request that people stop saying I don't understand science.  I already know you think that, since we're arguing over what constitutes science and its methods.  It's the argumentative equivalent of putting "QED" at the end of what you say.

I would argue that the argumentative equivalent of that is just saying QED.

And yes, it takes more than one observation, but all it takes is a repeatable phenomenon that contradicts a theoyr and the theory's gone, out the window, bye-bye.

As to matter: uh..... that's not actually what the conservation of matter and energy says, to the best of my knowledge. Relativity allows that matter isn't anything except for jellied energy, and matter is destroyed and converted into energy all the time. It's the sum total mass + energy that never changes, and there has never been a point in history where that sum total has ever changed, ever. Ever. Not even the Big Bang, because everything was there to start with.

Either way, it's unnecessary.

That's what I said; enough observations will unseat the idea.

My scenario with Rath was hypothetical; I was just proposing a situation in which two observations contradicted.   We're discussing the possibility of a supernatural answer.

He was just pointing out that multiple phenomena are not necessary.  

And supposing that it was shown that mass was being created without any apparent use of or decline in energy, that might unseat much of physics but science is not capable of concluding that a supernatural force is the cause of any phenomenon.  "For reasons unknown" is the closest it can come.  And "for reasons unknown" is all that would happen, not "oops we can't answer this (YET) so I guess the scientific method should be discarded".  

To say "For reasons unknown" is to imply that one of your well-established observations is false, which goes back to the problem of contradicting that basic tenet.  Since we can't have contradiction, it's either science goes or the supernatural comes (I posit).



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?

Was it?  How could you or I prove it was?

Unplug what you think is your computer from what you think is the wall.  Then try to reply to my post.

And what will that prove?  That I have a computer?  That it needs a power cord?

It will make you unable to do whatever it is you think you are doing right now.

And what will that prove?  That there was a relationship between the plug and my computer (I still don't know if I even have a computer, or even if I did anything at all)?

Even if it did prove a relationship, it still doesn't tell me anything about reality, which is the point here.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:

He was just pointing out that multiple phenomena are not necessary.  

And supposing that it was shown that mass was being created without any apparent use of or decline in energy, that might unseat much of physics but science is not capable of concluding that a supernatural force is the cause of any phenomenon.  "For reasons unknown" is the closest it can come.  And "for reasons unknown" is all that would happen, not "oops we can't answer this (YET) so I guess the scientific method should be discarded".  

To say "For reasons unknown" is to imply that one of your well-established observations is false, which goes back to the problem of contradicting that basic tenet.  Since we can't have contradiction, it's either science goes or the supernatural comes (I posit).

How can an observation of a phenomenon itself contradict another observation?  Sure, it can contradict a theory, but that leaves open the potential that a correct (other) explanation exists.  So no matter how many theories you destroy, there is always the possibility that we have simply not thought of the correct theory to explain what has happened, unless you somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.  

So if apples start falling up instead of down and it can't be reconciled with gravity as we know it, then our understanding of gravity is wrong [edit:  (or we're missing some other factor overpowering gravity)], but that doesn't mean there's NO scientific explanation for things falling up and down.  

Kinda funny how the "can't prove a negative" atheists face is going the other way now.   



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

@appolose. Stop making up this 'basic scientific tenet' that means a well supported theory can't be proven wrong, it doesn't exist and goes against the very nature of science. Science tries to prove things wrong, a single contradictory observation (as long as we are sure enough that it is a real observation) is enough to sink a scientific theory. For example if we were to create energy without using matter then we would violate the conservation of energy and quite a lot of physics would have to be discarded. It would be discarded.
As such an observation contrary to an established theory changes or destroys the theory, it does not invoke the supernatural.

@Final. The only way I could think of that happening was a violation of logic, which is why I put that condition in my question =P.



appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?

Was it?  How could you or I prove it was?

Unplug what you think is your computer from what you think is the wall.  Then try to reply to my post.

And what will that prove?  That I have a computer?  That it needs a power cord?

It will make you unable to do whatever it is you think you are doing right now.

And what will that prove?  That there was a relationship between the plug and my computer (I still don't know if I even have a computer, or even if I did anything at all)?

Even if it did prove a relationship, it still doesn't tell me anything about reality, which is the point here.

It tells you something about reality.  Unplugging your computer from the wall will result in a known event.  The fact that you have not unplugged your computer from your wall shows me that you already know, just as I know, what that end result is.

Your very actions prove your argument false.  Its like talking to a fat dietician who is trying to sell you on his ice cream diet.



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Final-Fan said:
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:

He was just pointing out that multiple phenomena are not necessary.  

And supposing that it was shown that mass was being created without any apparent use of or decline in energy, that might unseat much of physics but science is not capable of concluding that a supernatural force is the cause of any phenomenon.  "For reasons unknown" is the closest it can come.  And "for reasons unknown" is all that would happen, not "oops we can't answer this (YET) so I guess the scientific method should be discarded".  

To say "For reasons unknown" is to imply that one of your well-established observations is false, which goes back to the problem of contradicting that basic tenet.  Since we can't have contradiction, it's either science goes or the supernatural comes (I posit).

How can an observation of a phenomenon itself contradict another observation?  Sure, it can contradict a theory, but that leaves open the potential that a correct (other) explanation exists.  So no matter how many theories you destroy, there is always the possibility that we have simply not thought of the correct theory to explain what has happened, unless you somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.  

So if apples start falling up instead of down and it can't be reconciled with gravity as we know it, then our understanding of gravity is wrong [edit:  (or we're missing some other factor overpowering gravity)], but that doesn't mean there's NO scientific explanation for things falling up and down.  

Kinda funny how the "can't prove a negative" atheists face is going the other way now.   

My example to Rath is just that:  It is observed (hypothetically) that matter cannot be created physically, then observed that matter comes into existence.  These are contradictory if you don't invoke the supernatural, are they not?  For how could matter become without physical means if the physical is all there is?

For your example; yes, I've acknowledged that to Khuutra.  My example is not such a situation.  Your's entails having a well-established observation become a not-well-established observation.  Mine, on the other hand, shows two well-established observations that are not contradictory unless the sole existence of the phsyical is assumed.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
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Rath said:
@appolose. Stop making up this 'basic scientific tenet' that means a well supported theory can't be proven wrong, it doesn't exist and goes against the very nature of science. Science tries to prove things wrong, a single contradictory observation (as long as we are sure enough that it is a real observation) is enough to sink a scientific theory. For example if we were to create energy without using matter then we would violate the conservation of energy and quite a lot of physics would have to be discarded. It would be discarded.
As such an observation contrary to an established theory changes or destroys the theory, it does not invoke the supernatural.

@Final. The only way I could think of that happening was a violation of logic, which is why I put that condition in my question =P.

See my response to Finalfan.  My example is not one of science having observing one thing then not observing it, but of a different nature all together.  I will be the first to say that theories can be proven wrong, given that they have counter-observations.  My example is not one of counter-observations.

Also, I do not believe that a single observation to the contrary will defeat a theory; see my response to Khuutra on that.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?

Was it?  How could you or I prove it was?

Unplug what you think is your computer from what you think is the wall.  Then try to reply to my post.

And what will that prove?  That I have a computer?  That it needs a power cord?

It will make you unable to do whatever it is you think you are doing right now.

And what will that prove?  That there was a relationship between the plug and my computer (I still don't know if I even have a computer, or even if I did anything at all)?

Even if it did prove a relationship, it still doesn't tell me anything about reality, which is the point here.

It tells you something about reality.  Unplugging your computer from the wall will result in a known event.  The fact that you have not unplugged your computer from your wall shows me that you already know, just as I know, what that end result is.

Your very actions prove your argument false.  Its like talking to a fat dietician who is trying to sell you on his ice cream diet.

1.  You assume I have a computer. 

2. You assume my unpluggin it is connected to it being off.

3.  You assume that I can recognize the states of the computer

4.  You assume I haven't unplugged it.

5. You assume ect.

Whether or nor I assume the above list has no bearing on it being an unfounded assumption.  Even if I claimed that I did not assume those things (but really did), my hypocrisy has no bearing on my argument.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:

He was just pointing out that multiple phenomena are not necessary.  

And supposing that it was shown that mass was being created without any apparent use of or decline in energy, that might unseat much of physics but science is not capable of concluding that a supernatural force is the cause of any phenomenon.  "For reasons unknown" is the closest it can come.  And "for reasons unknown" is all that would happen, not "oops we can't answer this (YET) so I guess the scientific method should be discarded".  

To say "For reasons unknown" is to imply that one of your well-established observations is false, which goes back to the problem of contradicting that basic tenet.  Since we can't have contradiction, it's either science goes or the supernatural comes (I posit).

How can an observation of a phenomenon itself contradict another observation?  Sure, it can contradict a theory, but that leaves open the potential that a correct (other) explanation exists.  So no matter how many theories you destroy, there is always the possibility that we have simply not thought of the correct theory to explain what has happened, unless you somehow prove that no natural explanation can possibly exist.  

So if apples start falling up instead of down and it can't be reconciled with gravity as we know it, then our understanding of gravity is wrong [edit:  (or we're missing some other factor overpowering gravity)], but that doesn't mean there's NO scientific explanation for things falling up and down.  

Kinda funny how the "can't prove a negative" atheists face is going the other way now.   

My example to Rath is just that:  It is observed (hypothetically) that matter cannot be created physically, then observed that matter comes into existence.  These are contradictory if you don't invoke the supernatural, are they not?  For how could matter become without physical means if the physical is all there is?

For your example; yes, I've acknowledged that to Khuutra.  My example is not such a situation.  Your's entails having a well-established observation become a not-well-established observation.  Mine, on the other hand, shows two well-established observations that are not contradictory unless the sole existence of the phsyical is assumed.

How exactly could you "observe" that matter cannot be created?  It's nonsensical.  The most you could say is "I have never seen this happen."  "This cannot happen" is a THEORY derived from never seeing it happen.  Which would then be shown to be incorrect.  

Your hypothetical observation is impossible.   



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

I really hope this does not turn into another de-baptised-length debate :/



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz