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Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

Khuutra said:
Yeah, we're much more likely to realize we don't have the ability to perceive the cause for something than we are to reach the conclusion that the cause is supernatural.

"Jim Bob, my house collapsed into a miniature black hole and my wife was charred to bones by Hawking radiation."

"Holy Hell! How does that even happen?"

"I don't know. No one knows. There may never be an explanation!"

"Maybe God did it"

"Maybe shut up"

This is not the situation.  Here we have one observation, so nothing is contradictory.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

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appolose said:
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

It is breaking logic; the basic tenant of science is :"If it is observed enough, it is assumed true".  Thus, in the event of two contradictory well-established observations, you would have a contradiction (they're both assumed to be true, as they've both been observed enough).  You can't leave it unexplained.  So, you are left with two choices; either forsake the basic tenant, or impose the only logical answer (supernatural).

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenet of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.



Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

It is breaking logic; the basic tenant of science is :"If it is observed enough, it is assumed true".  Thus, in the event of two contradictory well-established observations, you would have a contradiction (they're both assumed to be true, as they've both been observed enough).  You can't leave it unexplained.  So, you are left with two choices; either forsake the basic tenant, or impose the only logical answer (supernatural).

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenant of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.

I think he thinks there are things that science can't handle losing in the bolded way, so that science would be destroyed/usurped were that to happen.  

Italicized the reason it's not the case (right?).  Only I'm pretty sure it's "tenet".  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I wish I could claim that I had only made a typo.

But no, there's pretty much nothing that science couldn't handle dropping. It could!

I am going to go edit that.



To be fair, you probably just copied appolose.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

It is breaking logic; the basic tenant of science is :"If it is observed enough, it is assumed true".  Thus, in the event of two contradictory well-established observations, you would have a contradiction (they're both assumed to be true, as they've both been observed enough).  You can't leave it unexplained.  So, you are left with two choices; either forsake the basic tenant, or impose the only logical answer (supernatural).

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenant of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.

They are only found to be false when enough observations otherwise defeats the notion that it is well-observed.  The basic tenant of science is not skepticism; it's that judgements on sense data will relfect reality.  If it really was skepticism, then it would reject judgements on sense data.

If evidence cannot be correlated, which well-established observation is scrapped, and why?  Either one you pick, you'll be going against your many observations of it.  And if you do that, then you will have to discard any other well-established observations anywhere else you may have them (as, apparently, well-established observations do not match reality). 

 

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
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Final-Fan said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Rath said:
Or he had a laptop running on battery and wireless =D

Also what science can't explain science won't explain, its not breaking logic its just leaving a mystery unsolved. It will never accept on non-falsifiable hypothesis because that violates the scientific method.

It is breaking logic; the basic tenant of science is :"If it is observed enough, it is assumed true".  Thus, in the event of two contradictory well-established observations, you would have a contradiction (they're both assumed to be true, as they've both been observed enough).  You can't leave it unexplained.  So, you are left with two choices; either forsake the basic tenant, or impose the only logical answer (supernatural).

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenant of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.

I think he thinks there are things that science can't handle losing in the bolded way, so that science would be destroyed/usurped were that to happen.  

Italicized the reason it's not the case (right?).  Only I'm pretty sure it's "tenet".  

Whoops!



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Khuutra said:

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenant of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.

They are only found to be false when enough observations otherwise defeats the notion that it is well-observed.  The basic tenant of science is not skepticism; it's that judgements on sense data will relfect reality.  If it really was skepticism, then it would reject judgements on sense data.

If evidence cannot be correlated, which well-established observation is scrapped, and why?  Either one you pick, you'll be going against your many observations of it.  And if you do that, then you will have to discard any other well-established observations anywhere else you may have them (as, apparently, well-established observations do not match reality). 

This is false. It only takes one contradictory observation, assuming it cannot be accounted for under a given theory, in order to make a theory defunct. That is what I meant byb skepticism: we do not know anything, and we can cast aside our theories in favor of something closer to the truth at any time.

I don't think you understand how scientists work.



Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:

Uh, this kind of already happened with classical physics, quantum physics, and relativity. The thingi s that none o them contradict the other except on certain scales and from certain frames of reference.

What you don't undnerstand, here, is that things that are assumed to be true are cast aside if they are found to be false. That's the most basic tenant of the scientific community's skepticism: there is no such thing as absolute adherence to "truth" because anything we "know" may be wrong. If evidence is found that can't be correlated, then we have to scrap a lot of field theories, but after that we're on our way just as before.

"Supernatural" is never a logical answer.

They are only found to be false when enough observations otherwise defeats the notion that it is well-observed.  The basic tenant of science is not skepticism; it's that judgements on sense data will relfect reality.  If it really was skepticism, then it would reject judgements on sense data.

If evidence cannot be correlated, which well-established observation is scrapped, and why?  Either one you pick, you'll be going against your many observations of it.  And if you do that, then you will have to discard any other well-established observations anywhere else you may have them (as, apparently, well-established observations do not match reality). 

This is false. It only takes one contradictory observation, assuming it cannot be accounted for under a given theory, in order to make a theory defunct. That is what I meant byb skepticism: we do not know anything, and we can cast aside our theories in favor of something closer to the truth at any time.

I don't think you understand how scientists work.

No, it's true.  Part of the reason many observations are needed to make a claim is just to test one's own understanding of said observations.  One observation contrary to an established idea is not going to disprove it because you don't necessarily trust what you think you've observed.

But that's not even the point:  back to my example with Rath.  We observe that matter cannot be created physically, and we also observe that it was created.  Notice that the latter is not a contrary observation of the former.  A contrary one would be that we observed matter being created physically.  In this example, that is not the case.

I would also respectfully request that people stop saying I don't understand science.  I already know you think that, since we're arguing over what constitutes science and its methods.  It's the argumentative equivalent of putting "QED" at the end of what you say.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
ManusJustus said:

Why was your computer plugged in when you replied to my post?

Was it?  How could you or I prove it was?

Unplug what you think is your computer from what you think is the wall.  Then try to reply to my post.