That does not require the discarding of science or the supernatural. Rather it requires that the laws of physics we use are not eternal.

For one thing they are confined to our universe, for another in the earliest moments of the universe mathematical models show that the current laws of physics would not have held anyway. Where everything came from does require further study and explanation but it certainly doesn't require science to accept the supernatural.

So no, that example doesn't hold true for the requirements I gave you.

Whoa, is this turning into a solipsism debate? Nothing can be proven to a certain extent, but where do you draw the line? If you put the line too far in one direction, everything is meaningless. I put my line there, by the way. Life kicks ass over here guys.

Haha! No, I meant the view of god creating the world as described in Genesis is only worthy of idiot rednecks. The person we're discussing this with seems to have some intelligence so taking that orld view seems utterly bonkers and disrespective of his/her god. A simpleton can see the flaws in Genesis' creation myth.

Yes. It's a stupid and pointless debate as well.

Clearly, anyone with a sane mind will see that the scientific view of the world is more true than the religious version. It is also observable and thus the continual rejecting of it as unprovable and based on assumption is a stubborn and unreasonable world-view. While someone using the scientific method can disprove the theories of science or improve their accuracy this is impossible with someone taking the literal view of any religion.

My question is always why that religion? Why not another? They all are based on the constructs of the environment.

Science and materialism do not have to be beliefs either. They are tools that can be used to manipulate our environment. Having an evolutionary view of the world has already helped people come up with inventions, just like Newton's Laws, Einstein's Laws, Quantum Physics, Hologram Theory and so on. In this situation the theory of evolution looks a far better bet than god mucking about for a few days. It explains a lot more of the evidence in a simpler way than the religious view. The religious view makes god petty and manipulative, surely something those 'types' can't possibly believe.

So where did you draw the line sir? Is everything meaningless, or do you actually believe in objective reality as you can see and sense and know it?

I believe everything is a bunch of meaningless muck and I don't really care, but I'm not gonna screw around with solipsism and "brains in vats" scenarios until I go nuts. I figure science is good enough and always getting better. If I'm inside a computer or a robot body or I'm a rock dreaming I'm a human, no sweat off my nuts.

The scientific axiom that what we perceive is real is where I draw the line. I know there is no proof of it but its something which is impossible to prove because everything we think about relies on our perception. So I just kind of assume its true because it seems to work out well enough.

There is doubt and then there is madness. Doubt and healthy scepticism is good, going beyond that is not a good place to be. Besides, in this case, the doubt seems to be only in certain areas. Which is daft.

I'm at a computer right now?  How can I prove that?

To assume that they are not constant would be contradictory to our pretended observation of them being constant.  In that instance would it be discarding the assumption of the trustworthiness of empiricism.

@ Everyone calling for a point of "reasonable" assumption,
Sense data can fit any belief about reality; I could interpret this set of sense data, for instance, to be represent a computer, or I could take it to be The Matrix; there is no way to examine other sense data to determine which view is correct, as that sense data could be taken to mean anything as well. The scientific axiom that whatever we observe is real could still quite fit a Matrix view of reality; yes what we sense is a real computer simulation, so to draw the line there is to get you no further.

You can go ahead and assume or presuppose that your view on reality is correct if you'd like, but realize that such a view is on an equal footing with mine.