By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Conservatives: Would national healthcare be more paletable if...

@Mafoo. I don't feel like completely derailing this topic with a debate about classes in America and the lack of opportunities to change them =P

And I guess you just read my post wrong. I meant that a healthcare system cannot be entirely balanced. Either some people are missing out on proper healthcare or some people are paying more than their healthcare is worth to make sure that everybody gets it. One of the two groups, the rich or the poor, is going to have to make a sacrifice.

Being the damned socialist that I am I'm totally for it being the rich =P



Around the Network
Rath said:
@Mafoo. I don't feel like completely derailing this topic with a debate about classes in America and the lack of opportunities to change them =P

And I guess you just read my post wrong. I meant that a healthcare system cannot be entirely balanced. Either some people are missing out on proper healthcare or some people are paying more than their healthcare is worth to make sure that everybody gets it. One of the two groups, the rich or the poor, is going to have to make a sacrifice.

Being the damned socialist that I am I'm totally for it being the rich =P

Being I was born poor, and I am not now, I find it hard to agree that what I did can't be done. Also, based on how easy it was, I find it hard to understand why it's hard for anyone else. And by easy, I mean it didn't take a lot of intelligence, it just took a crap load of effort. 

Just like digging a ditch is easy, it just takes a lot of work.

Oh, and being the damned libertarian I am I'm for protecting all Americans rights, not just the poor =P



TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
@Mafoo. I don't feel like completely derailing this topic with a debate about classes in America and the lack of opportunities to change them =P

And I guess you just read my post wrong. I meant that a healthcare system cannot be entirely balanced. Either some people are missing out on proper healthcare or some people are paying more than their healthcare is worth to make sure that everybody gets it. One of the two groups, the rich or the poor, is going to have to make a sacrifice.

Being the damned socialist that I am I'm totally for it being the rich =P

Being I was born poor, and I am not now, I find it hard to agree that what I did can't be done. Also, based on how easy it was, I find it hard to understand why it's hard for anyone else. And by easy, I mean it didn't take a lot of intelligence, it just took a crap load of effort. 

Just like digging a ditch is easy, it just takes a lot of work.a

Oh, and being the damned libertarian I am I'm for protecting all Americans rights, not just the poor =P

Well I think its a bit of a hard sell personally that the poor are only poor because they are lazy =O. You seem to be an exception to the rule, somebody who made it through hardwork, and good on you for that you clearly deserve what you have. Some people can't succeed like you despite hard work though.

Its kind of like out of the millions of musicians out there only a few ever become succesful, you are one of those few in this case.

 

Also we simply have a different idea of what constitutes rights, I believe in healthcare as a human right.



No, the government will have a hard enough time trying to run one national healthcare system, what would happen with two? One would eventually dissolve the other, and we would be back where we started.
On your second point, no, thats wellfare, stealing from the rich, the people who worked hard to get there, and giving it to the people unwilling to take a chance.

So no, NO form of nation healthcare will work.



Past Avatar picture!!!

Don't forget your helmet there, Master Chief!

Rath said:

Also we simply have a different idea of what constitutes rights, I believe in healthcare as a human right.

I think I have the inalienable right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

You think I have those rights, plus healthcare, let me ask you this.

If I was the last person on earth, would I live Live, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness? Yes. Would I have healthcare? No.

How can I have a right, that I can't have unless someone gives it to me?

healthcare is not a right, it's something earned.

 



Around the Network

And here is a list of the top 25 in demand jobs in 2006 (not sure about today)

1 Software Design/Development ($95K-$105K)
2 Nursing ($35K-$45K)
3 Accounting/Finance Executive ($65K-$75K)
4 Sales Representative/Business Development ($65K-$75K)
5 Administrative Assistant ($35K-$45K)
6 Corporate Finance ($75K-$85K)
7 Networking/System Administration ($75K-$85K)
8 Intelligence ($75K-$85K)
9 General Accounting ($45K-$55K)
10 Technical Customer Support ($45K-$55K)
11 Testing/Quality Assurance ($65K-$75K)
12 Project/Engagement Management ($85K-$95K)
13 Business Analysis (Software Implementation) ($85K-$95K)
14 Product Management ($95K-$105K)
15 Database Administration ($85K-$95K)
16 Technology Management ($125K-$135K)
17 Business Analysis ($75K-$85K)
18 Account/Customer Support ($35K-$45K)
19 Advertising (Online and Offline) ($65K-$75K)
20 Semiconductor Test Engineer ($55K-$65K)
21 Training ($55K-$65K)
22 Retail Banking ($45K-$55K)
23 Semiconductor Design/Verification Engineer ($105K-$115K)
24 Help Desk ($45K-$55K)
25 Medical Technologist/Technician ($35K-$45K)

If you had any of those, you would not be poor. Some of those only require a 2 year degree. Anyone poor in this country can go to Collage for free. All they have to do is put the effort into going.

I see it all the time. I go to family reunions, and my relatives talk about money, and wishing there job paid more. When I ask if they have thought about collage, they say things like "No, collage is not for me".

Well, you don't want to put the effort into not being poor, why should anyone else?

Oh, and I am not the exception to the rule, I am the rule. Anyone who goes to collage, gets a degree in something useful, and is still poor, is the exception. It's not hard at all to not be poor, people just don't want to do what it takes to not be poor.



TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:

Also we simply have a different idea of what constitutes rights, I believe in healthcare as a human right.

I think I have the inalienable right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

You think I have those rights, plus healthcare, let me ask you this.

If I was the last person on earth, would I live Live, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness? Yes. Would I have healthcare? No.

How can I have a right, that I can't have unless someone gives it to me?

healthcare is not a right, it's something earned.

 

I think you have an incorrect definition of human rights. A human right is, in my opinion, something everybody under a government is entitled to. Otherwise rights such as;

Article 22.

  • Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 25.

  • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
  • (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

  • (1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
  • (2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
  • (3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

 

 

Could not exist. All of which are defined under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. These are all rights given by the government at the expense of others. The last one, right to education, is especially relevant to this.



Anyone that is poor can become rich, or at least reach a place in their life that they can sustain themselves, and save back money. At least that's true.

Not all are poor because they are lazy. Some just have horrible, costly vices.
Not all are poor because they are lazy, or have costly vices. They just lack the ability to understand financial management.
Not all are poor because they are either of those things, but they are rare.

Essentially, you are poor in America because of one of the following reasons:

1) You are lazy. You don't want a job, or cannot get a better one because you really don't care.
2) You spend all the money you earn in a mad-dash for contentment through materialistic items
3) You cannot budget properly
4) You are physically handicapped, and cannot work, even if you wanted to

There may be a 5th case - something that involves handicapping in some wild way, but I can assure you that many, MANY Americans fit into the first 1 through 3 categories. Some do fit in #4, and they need taken care of by the society. And society government. People can be taken care of by other means 95% of the time.

I have yet to meet someone in real life that was poor, and lacked the means to become rich. All lacked the desire, drive, or competence to become rich, but they never lacked the means to.

A few examples:

1) A friend of mine that I've mentioned a few times. Single dad, sad situation. He barely makes ends meet, and has a lot of unsecured debt. Problem is he cannot budget, he eats out a lot, and has a dead-end job earning $14/hr.

I've tried, and tried, and tried to help him learn to budget. Even with his income, and a daughter he decided to have, and keep, he could make it. Unfortunately, he eats out 5+ times a week, and this is costly. He has a 2005 vehicle that has ~$10,000 in debt still on it. I've suggested that he learns to cook, get rid of the car, and buy a ~$2,000 car that would allow him to have no debt, and cheaper insurance. No matter what I say to him, he never does it. He complains about his dead end job, and wants something better, but totally lacks the comprehension that other careers either cost money, or take dedication (he has neither). I suggested he learn MySQL and DBMS as a career path. It's free (I've learned it for my job by practical usage, without college). It pays $60,000 a year. I even had a book that he could use to learn it. He never touched it. Once.

How do you help someone like that?

Example 2:
My fiancee has a brother. He has a wife, and a daughter. He has worked a 40hr work week maybe 2 years of his life, and he is 32 years old. He decided that he randomly wanted to become a teacher, so he took $20,000 in student loans to become a teacher. He's now in the middle of it, and unsure what he wants to do again. He has a $120,000 mortgage payment, and barely any income. His wife used to work a $20/hr job at an insurance company, but quit because she wanted to spend more time with her daughter. Noble, but stupid, because they are about to lose their house and become poor. Their fault, or the governments?

I have many, many people around me that have these issues. The fact is that unless your disabled, you DO NOT HAVE TO BE POOR. Rath, come walk the streets of my town, Circleville Ohio. 12%+ unemployment, and a horrible per-capita income (one of the lowest in the state). Every house has a plasma TV, and a nice car. Guess why? They are drowning in debt. Many Americans have this horrible idea that they all need a nice TV, Car, and house, when that simply can't be obtained immediately.

If the government wanted to fight poverty, I think the best thing the US Govt. could do is provide a stimulus bill that forced every federally-assisted home to go through a Dave Ramsey crash course in debt removal. That'd fix some of our issues in a matter of a year or two, as he has a very high success rate of getting people out of poverty.

@OP:

Here's my take on healthcare: We want healthcare that isn't run by the government. Government doesn't provide liberty or rights. They allow them to exist in the nation. If you force people into a specific subset of rights (mandatory healthcare for all from 1 monopolistic entity), your really sacrificing freedom for 'rights'.

If you want to mandate healthcare, go ahead but:

1) Fix prices before forcing HC on people. The government pays $7,700 per Medicare recepient. That's almost twice the average of private insurance. You honestly think govt. run HC is going to lower those costs?

2) Don't nationalize it. We've nationalized education and pensions, and both are utter failures. I don't think the 3rd time is the charm. Either permit it on the state level, or find another avenue like co-ops.

3) If you want to mandate that it's needed for everyone, that's fine. But implement an auto insurance style system that has a roving band of options that allow for a very meager amount of coverage for participants, and ensure that is cheap. For example, mandated HC could cover only the most extreme cases such as bills over >$25,000. Such insurance, based on actuarial math should be quite cheap, as opposed to everyone-gets-everything insurance which would be ghastly in the US. At least such a system provides the freedom to choose carriers, and allows for competition in the marketplace.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

the NHS would cost alot less if all the red tape and pointless beaurococy was done away with. there are too many unnecessary jobs and lawyers in health services to day, i mean does the NHS really need a 'Motivational Ward Officer' or other such crap.