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Forums - General - Socialist, and the dangers of government.

Squilliam on 12 August 2009

@ Mafoo could you also stop posting false dilemmas and such? You know you would probably lose points in a debate for asking 'would you prefer to earn $20 under x system and $40 under y system' for example.



Tease.

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TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
pastro243 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
tombi123 said:

Put Ghandi, Mandela, Fidel and Che on the left and it suddenly doesn't seem so evil.

The only country to ever drop a nuke onto another, is a capitalist country.

In a socialist country, the government can fuck you over.

In a capitalist country, corparations do fuck you over.

The only good society is a moneyless society.

I never said that all left countries are evil, I said all evil countries are left.

If you don't want government to have the power to be evil, don't give them the power. All left countries are countries where government has a lot of power. All right governments have far less power.

As for the Nuke. We nuked a country that attacked us. We stopped Germany from Nuking the world (we as in the allies).

And very few corporations can fuck me over. First, I have to pay them. In government, someone else has to elect them.

And I hope there is never a country where effort is meaningless (moneyless).

 


First, I think the word "evil" to decribe a country its absolutly ridiculous, if not stupid.

I would also like to know how a country is better than the other for supporting liberty and democracy, and at the same time supporting dictatorships, torturing people and messing with other countries for oil.

Trying to make a political view as something evil is clearly of another time, times that we should leave behind.

Also, talking about "all" left or right countries is not near anything accurate, there are many goverments out there and they dont behave the same way even sharing political views.

Why you jumping on me? "evil" was tombi's word, I just used it in kind. I figured if he wanted to see the world that way, I would use it.

In my OP, I never used the world evil.



pastro243 on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
pastro243 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Odd, I live on one of the safest places in the world, and the most capitalistic, so not sure how you say something can't be both.

Is it?

Yes. I never lock my car, or house. We have not had a murder in my town in over 5 years (a town of 10,000 people).

Crime where I live is very low compared to the US average, and the US is low compared to the world.


Well, I asumed you where talking about your country which is completly different.



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pastro243 on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
pastro243 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
tombi123 said:

Put Ghandi, Mandela, Fidel and Che on the left and it suddenly doesn't seem so evil.

The only country to ever drop a nuke onto another, is a capitalist country.

In a socialist country, the government can fuck you over.

In a capitalist country, corparations do fuck you over.

The only good society is a moneyless society.

I never said that all left countries are evil, I said all evil countries are left.

If you don't want government to have the power to be evil, don't give them the power. All left countries are countries where government has a lot of power. All right governments have far less power.

As for the Nuke. We nuked a country that attacked us. We stopped Germany from Nuking the world (we as in the allies).

And very few corporations can fuck me over. First, I have to pay them. In government, someone else has to elect them.

And I hope there is never a country where effort is meaningless (moneyless).

 


First, I think the word "evil" to decribe a country its absolutly ridiculous, if not stupid.

I would also like to know how a country is better than the other for supporting liberty and democracy, and at the same time supporting dictatorships, torturing people and messing with other countries for oil.

Trying to make a political view as something evil is clearly of another time, times that we should leave behind.

Also, talking about "all" left or right countries is not near anything accurate, there are many goverments out there and they dont behave the same way even sharing political views.

Why you jumping on me? "evil" was tombi's word, I just used it in kind. I figured if he wanted to see the world that way, I would use it.

In my OP, I never used the world evil.


Oh sorry, anyway I clearly read "I said all evil countries are left" , maybe that had to do with the mistake.



- Our album on spotify https://open.spotify.com/album/56mEbEgyBYGzcDyZ1eMQ1v?si=hYKgir5YRSCrzywgGmV4oQ

- Our videoclip 

- My manga: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/blanca-the-world/list?title_no=313068

SciFiBoy on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:

If the same effort can make one person 65K a year, and another 650K a year, why does anyone do the 65K a year job?

It takes a lot more effort to make 650K. That effort might not be while he is making it, but it;s effort spent to get that job.

so, you think i could be the worlds best footballer purely by putting in the effort?

shit, i did try my best, still i was not as good as Wayne Rooney, why damnit why, your logic fucked me over and did not even tell me why?

like others have said its not just effort, what about talent or ability?

also, surely the person who puts less effort in, under your system should have pay slashed automatically for not putting as much effort in anymore? 

When your logic fails you, you fall back to this. I can pick any rule, go to the extreme, and find something that defies it. Stop talking about the .001%, and let's talk about the other 99.99%.


you think only 0.01% of humans are more or less able than others or have disabilitys that affect there ability to earn? 

um, i could also say the same about your logic, you always use the extreme examples of things to attack them, this thread is just that, you always infact assume that any socialist idea must lead to a communist dictatorship...

at least my logic isnt the logic of "i did something, therefore everyone can do it" the world really dosent work that way, its incredibly niave to think it does.



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Rath on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
pastro243 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Odd, I live on one of the safest places in the world, and the most capitalistic, so not sure how you say something can't be both.

Is it?

Yes. I never lock my car, or house. We have not had a murder in my town in over 5 years (a town of 10,000 people).

Crime where I live is very low compared to the US average, and the US is low compared to the world.

Your country as a whole isn't particularly safe. Though I have no idea if there is any causation between capitalism and that, I think its more likely due to things like your ridiculous gun laws.



TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
Squilliam said:
@ Mafoo could you also stop posting false dilemmas and such? You know you would probably lose points in a debate for asking 'would you prefer to earn $20 under x system and $40 under y system' for example.

 

Once you find a socialist country where the people are better off then in a capitalist country, I will.

 

As an example, I have better healthcare they you can buy in your country, at any price. The only way you can match my care, is to fly here.

 

I have the same healthcare as 90% of Americans. In order to get that coverage to 100%, we need to turn our healthcare into your healthcare.

 

I was born poor, a minority, and with a disability. If I can work my ass off to get what I want, so can everyone else. If you want something given to you with no effort, move to Europe, and get the hell out of my sight.



HappySqurriel on 12 August 2009
pastro243 said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
@HS. That ignores the fact that some people are naturally far more skilled than others. Somebody can be born intelligent and earn a lot of money without putting much effort in ever. Another person can be born stupid and put a lot of effort in and never get much money.

Effort is rewarded in a capitalist society, but nowhere near as much as natural talent is.

I have (personally) never seen someone who was highly successful because of natural talent without putting in a lot of effort to develop that talent. Beyond that, with how many "Stupid" people I have known who have overcome a (dramatic) disadvantage to be successful in their chosen field, and how many "Smart" people I have seen fail simply due to lazyness and poor choices, I don't accept the argument that any significant percentage of the population is failing because they don't have the opportunity to succeed.


Well I know  many guys that are very smart and dont have to work as near as much as others do. You see it more clearly in the university.

And lack of oportunities exists, some are born with a lot and many more dont, I was raised by parents who are doctors, in a place where I saw almost no crime and with a bunch of people that were culturaly superior to the mayority of people. When you add genetics and enviorment, money, its all an advantage you have to other people, even if they make their best effort, a few will succeed, while the others, making half the effort will obtain better results.

Its not a good reality, and I would love people to have equal oportunities(on the good side), but its true, and in a world where competition is so harsh, effort isnt always enough.

Now, I don't disagree that there are advantages that allow people to become more successful than other people (or as successful with less effort) ...

What I have been saying is that the system is rational (not fair) and knowing how the system works people who are willing to put in the effort will always achieve far greater results than if they didn't put in the effort. To use an analogy to demonstrate my point, consider personal fitness ... there are lots of factors which influence the level of work and dedication required to achieve personal fitness goals but someone who puts in a meaningful effort towards their fitness goals will always be more fit than if they didn't put forward that effort; and everyone has the potential to be extremely fit if they put in enough effort. Now, the system is not fair but to claim that someone is over 300 pounds for any reason except for the choices they made is unreasonable.

 



TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
SciFiBoy said:

you think only 0.01% of humans are more or less able than others or have disabilitys that affect there ability to earn? 

um, i could also say the same about your logic, you always use the extreme examples of things to attack them, this thread is just that, you always infact assume that any socialist idea must lead to a communist dictatorship...

at least my logic isnt the logic of "i did something, therefore everyone can do it" the world really dosent work that way, its incredibly niave to think it does.

As someone who got where I am off of nothing more then a huge amount of effort, I can tell you it's at least that way in the US. Not sure about the rest of the world.

Effort can not make you a world class footballer, but effort can make you just about any other profession where skill is more important then talent.



SciFiBoy on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Squilliam said:
@ Mafoo could you also stop posting false dilemmas and such? You know you would probably lose points in a debate for asking 'would you prefer to earn $20 under x system and $40 under y system' for example.

 

Once you find a socialist country where the people are better off then in a capitalist country, I will.

 

As an example, I have better healthcare they you can buy in your country, at any price. The only way you can match my care, is to fly here.

 

I have the same healthcare as 90% of Americans. In order to get that coverage to 100%, we need to turn our healthcare into your healthcare.

 

I was born poor, a minority, and with a disability. If I can work my ass off to get what I want, so can everyone else. If you want something given to you with no effort, move to Europe, and get the hell out of my sight.

not everyone is you, it is the hieght of arrogancce to assume you are the gold standard by which all should live.

people are different, what may seem like the best thing to you, wont to someone else, not everyone has the same mindset, people are not the same, theyre all different.

theyre are people in the world who are probably 10x worse off than you, even in your own nation, theyre will almost certainly be people that have worse disabilitys and are poorer.

as for ethnicity, what does that have to do with this? unless youre saying your beloved capitalist america is racist?

also, define Better Off?

one could argue that Europeans are better off than americans, in terms of some things they probably are, heck, the UK is better off in terms of how much per head healthcare costs us.

the last line is pure bile, it makes a number of implications about other posters and about the European nations and by extention there residents/natives including myself

UK healthcare does me just fine by the way, never had any problems with it, sure people do, they have problems in your nation too, no-one is saying that state healthcare is perfect, just that we think its fairer than private insurance based healthcare.