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Forums - General - Socialist, and the dangers of government.

TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
tombi123 said:

2) How short sighted of you. Money is meaningless. If you think money gives meaning to life, I feel sorry for you.

Sorry, but that's the stupidest statement in this thread.

Money is the translation of your effort into something tradable. If you think your time is meaningless, I feel sorry for you.



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TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
Vanversive said:

Absolute safety eh… What a mundane existence, conflict is a part of life, at least in this period of time. For that ideal to even exist you would have to rewrite the laws of natural selection. I don’t care how intelligent you might think we have come to, we still have that reptilian brain present inside of us, and until we evolve past that it will be a dog eat dog world. Fear is an obstacle, conflict builds character, security is a character flaw in my book, because in the abstract it’s all bullshit.

Nice post.

I forget who said it (I think it was Kaz), but it went something like this:

For Socialism to work, we don't need to build a better government, we need to build a better human. While humans exist, socialism will fail.



SciFiBoy on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
i used one example to prove a point, but okay, nitpick and ignore as always, my point is this; people get paid because someone thinks they're worth/deserve that much, not because of effort

Ok, so lets talk about normal people. How is money not effort to you and me?

of couse you have to put effort in to make money, thats not the point, in one job putting in lots of effort will earn you £65k a year, in another putting in not so much effort can earn you £650k, my point is this, how if we apply the logic of amout of effort equals amount of pay, is that fair? 

If the same effort can make one person 65K a year, and another 650K a year, why does anyone do the 65K a year job?

It takes a lot more effort to make 650K. That effort might not be while he is making it, but it;s effort spent to get that job.

so, you think i could be the worlds best footballer purely by putting in the effort?

shit, i did try my best, still i was not as good as Wayne Rooney, why damnit why, your logic fucked me over and did not even tell me why?

like others have said its not just effort, what about talent or ability?

also, surely the person who puts less effort in, under your system should have pay slashed automatically for not putting as much effort in anymore? 



Squilliam on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Squilliam said:
TheRealMafoo said:

So?

The world is not fair, and when we try and make it fair, we make a world where even those who would have less due to less talent, now have far less.

Would you rather make $40 an hour for your effort, while a better looking person makes $45 an hour, or would you rather live in a world where both of you made $20 an hour?

I will take the $40, thank you very much.

Lovely false dilemma you've got going there.

Do you want to live in a world where you live in constant and real fear for your life but make $50 an hour or one where you make $5 an hour but live in absolute safety?

Odd, I live on one of the safest places in the world, and the most capitalistic, so not sure how you say something can't be both.

Theres also no proof that having a social safety net prevents causes a difference between $20 an hour and $40 an hour in absolute renumeration assuming of course the cost of living is identical between the two different renumeration rates.



Tease.

pastro243 on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
tombi123 said:

Put Ghandi, Mandela, Fidel and Che on the left and it suddenly doesn't seem so evil.

The only country to ever drop a nuke onto another, is a capitalist country.

In a socialist country, the government can fuck you over.

In a capitalist country, corparations do fuck you over.

The only good society is a moneyless society.

I never said that all left countries are evil, I said all evil countries are left.

If you don't want government to have the power to be evil, don't give them the power. All left countries are countries where government has a lot of power. All right governments have far less power.

As for the Nuke. We nuked a country that attacked us. We stopped Germany from Nuking the world (we as in the allies).

And very few corporations can fuck me over. First, I have to pay them. In government, someone else has to elect them.

And I hope there is never a country where effort is meaningless (moneyless).

 


First, I think the word "evil" to decribe a country its absolutly ridiculous, if not stupid.

I would also like to know how a country is better than the other for supporting liberty and democracy, and at the same time supporting dictatorships, torturing people and messing with other countries for oil.

Trying to make a political view as something evil is clearly of another time, times that we should leave behind.

Also, talking about "all" left or right countries is not near anything accurate, there are many goverments out there and they dont behave the same way even sharing political views.



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pastro243 on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Squilliam said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Rath said:
HappySqurriel said:
Rath said:
@HS. That ignores the fact that some people are naturally far more skilled than others. Somebody can be born intelligent and earn a lot of money without putting much effort in ever. Another person can be born stupid and put a lot of effort in and never get much money.

Effort is rewarded in a capitalist society, but nowhere near as much as natural talent is.

I have (personally) never seen someone who was highly successful because of natural talent without putting in a lot of effort to develop that talent. Beyond that, with how many "Stupid" people I have known who have overcome a (dramatic) disadvantage to be successful in their chosen field, and how many "Smart" people I have seen fail simply due to lazyness and poor choices, I don't accept the argument that any significant percentage of the population is failing because they don't have the opportunity to succeed.

As I said, I agree effort is rewarded in a capitalist society. However there is only so much effort can do for you, somebody with natural talent has a far higher potential in a capitalist society than somebody without that natural talent. Natural talent carries with it a higher reward than effort in capitalism due to the nature of capitalism, the person with the most talent (whether obtained by effort or whether its latent) is paid the most - pure effort can get a person without natural talent through life, but it is very unlikely to get them to the top.

Why? Because people with natural talent who also put effort in are always going to be better than them.

So?

The world is not fair, and when we try and make it fair, we make a world where even those who would have less due to less talent, now have far less.

Would you rather make $40 an hour for your effort, while a better looking person makes $45 an hour, or would you rather live in a world where both of you made $20 an hour?

I will take the $40, thank you very much.

Lovely false dilemma you've got going there.

Do you want to live in a world where you live in constant and real fear for your life but make $50 an hour or one where you make $5 an hour but live in absolute safety?

Odd, I live on one of the safest places in the world, and the most capitalistic, so not sure how you say something can't be both.

Is it?



- Our album on spotify https://open.spotify.com/album/56mEbEgyBYGzcDyZ1eMQ1v?si=hYKgir5YRSCrzywgGmV4oQ

- Our videoclip 

- My manga: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/blanca-the-world/list?title_no=313068

Squilliam on 12 August 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:

If the same effort can make one person 65K a year, and another 650K a year, why does anyone do the 65K a year job?

It takes a lot more effort to make 650K. That effort might not be while he is making it, but it;s effort spent to get that job.

so, you think i could be the worlds best footballer purely by putting in the effort?

shit, i did try my best, still i was not as good as Wayne Rooney, why damnit why, your logic fucked me over and did not even tell me why?

like others have said its not just effort, what about talent or ability?

also, surely the person who puts less effort in, under your system should have pay slashed automatically for not putting as much effort in anymore? 

It also depends on your talents. A talented person who is very good with his hands in creating say furniture competes on a world market whereas someone whos an accountant and very good at it only competes with people in his own country. In a world with unified accounting standards and languages the former and the latter would be in the same boat, so however much they may be equally talented but in different respective fields the fact the latter gets paid more than the former is a product of the economic system. Furniture can be exported, accounting talent not so much.



Tease.

TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
i used one example to prove a point, but okay, nitpick and ignore as always, my point is this; people get paid because someone thinks they're worth/deserve that much, not because of effort

Ok, so lets talk about normal people. How is money not effort to you and me?

of couse you have to put effort in to make money, thats not the point, in one job putting in lots of effort will earn you £65k a year, in another putting in not so much effort can earn you £650k, my point is this, how if we apply the logic of amout of effort equals amount of pay, is that fair? 

If the same effort can make one person 65K a year, and another 650K a year, why does anyone do the 65K a year job?

It takes a lot more effort to make 650K. That effort might not be while he is making it, but it;s effort spent to get that job.

so, you think i could be the worlds best footballer purely by putting in the effort?

shit, i did try my best, still i was not as good as Wayne Rooney, why damnit why, your logic fucked me over and did not even tell me why?

like others have said its not just effort, what about talent or ability?

also, surely the person who puts less effort in, under your system should have pay slashed automatically for not putting as much effort in anymore? 

When your logic fails you, you fall back to this. I can pick any rule, go to the extreme, and find something that defies it. Stop talking about the .001%, and let's talk about the other 99.99%.



TheRealMafoo on 12 August 2009
pastro243 said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Odd, I live on one of the safest places in the world, and the most capitalistic, so not sure how you say something can't be both.

Is it?

Yes. I never lock my car, or house. We have not had a murder in my town in over 5 years (a town of 10,000 people).

Crime where I live is very low compared to the US average, and the US is low compared to the world.



pastro243 on 12 August 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
i used one example to prove a point, but okay, nitpick and ignore as always, my point is this; people get paid because someone thinks they're worth/deserve that much, not because of effort

Ok, so lets talk about normal people. How is money not effort to you and me?

of couse you have to put effort in to make money, thats not the point, in one job putting in lots of effort will earn you £65k a year, in another putting in not so much effort can earn you £650k, my point is this, how if we apply the logic of amout of effort equals amount of pay, is that fair? 

If the same effort can make one person 65K a year, and another 650K a year, why does anyone do the 65K a year job?

It takes a lot more effort to make 650K. That effort might not be while he is making it, but it;s effort spent to get that job.

so, you think i could be the worlds best footballer purely by putting in the effort?

shit, i did try my best, still i was not as good as Wayne Rooney, why damnit why, your logic fucked me over and did not even tell me why?

like others have said its not just effort, what about talent or ability?

also, surely the person who puts less effort in, under your system should have pay slashed automatically for not putting as much effort in anymore? 

When your logic fails you, you fall back to this. I can pick any rule, go to the extreme, and find something that defies it. Stop talking about the .001%, and let's talk about the other 99.99%.

Its a job, I cant see how its so much different to any other one.



- Our album on spotify https://open.spotify.com/album/56mEbEgyBYGzcDyZ1eMQ1v?si=hYKgir5YRSCrzywgGmV4oQ

- Our videoclip 

- My manga: https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/blanca-the-world/list?title_no=313068