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Forums - General - Why we need a flat tax.

ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

We are talking about time.  You are taxed a percentage of your wages which you earn with your time.

Some people work more... some less. 

They are still being taxed a percentage of the time that they chose to work.

If you could charge based on your per hour wage that would be even better.  But we have salaried workers so that would screw things up a bit.

Clearly everyone should be able to make enough money to live before they are taxed however.


Neccesity should not be taxed.  Just luxuary.  Which is everything that  is not neccesity IE food/clothing/shelter (to a reasonable extent, IE: not mansions)

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Everything outside of essentials is luxuray and therefore should be taxed at the same rate.

Hence a flat tax.



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TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Why?

So should everything work this way? Should I show my W2 to Burger King, so they can adjust accordingly how much to charge me for food?

No, but if you are having trouble paying for food you should stick to Burger King and not visit high-end french restaurants.



Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Everything outside of essentials is luxuray and therefore should be taxed at the same rate.

Hence a flat tax.

A flat tax doesnt take into account what people spend their money on.  If you wanted to reach your stated goal you would have to provide government funding solely through a sales tax system that exempted basic items such as food.



ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Why?

So should everything work this way? Should I show my W2 to Burger King, so they can adjust accordingly how much to charge me for food?

No, if you are having trouble paying for food you should stick to Burger King and not visit high-end french restaurant.

I can eat for a week on what Burger King cost, so based on basic needs, it's like a high-end french restaurant.

It would be interesting to see what it cost to live a minimum life, without being a burden on anyone. I bet it's very little.



ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said:

Do you have problems with understanding someones argument and responding to it appropriately? What is so hard to understand about this:

"when taxes are low enough that companies thrive and unemployment is low the low wage earners have far more power to demand more equatible incomes because the companies cannot operate without their work."

If you insist on always increasing taxes on the top 5% of income earners to what extent do 95% of people have on keeping control on government spending?

the economy is better when the tax burden of everyone is minimalized to only cover the services that the government can provide more efficiently than the private sector.

Why can't people look at Seattle'slight rail transit system...

Wage earners dont demand more income, their income is decided by the free market.  It doesnt matter if you tax a company $100,000 or $1, if the free market values a software engineer at $60,000 a year that is how much he is going to make.

The government has to provide Seattle's light rail system because it the free market would never provide such a service.  There are public goods and private goods, and it so happens that the government is more efficient at providing public goods and the market is more efficient at providing private goods.  This is a simple economic fact, and if you think otherwise I ask you how efficient do you think the army would be if they depended on the free market to provide them with finances, or if you'd like paying a toll booth at every street corner?

Your idea that making people pay more or less taxes will change how they view government spending is a huge and incorrect assumption.  If someone pays $4,000 in taxes and you increase that to $5,000, a light bulb isnt going to flash in their head and change their view on government spending.

I think you have a massive lack of understanding how the free market works ...

If you have a certain number of companies, who each require a certain number of employees who have a certain skill set, then depending on the quantity of people with that skillset relative to the number demanded determines a person's wage. If companies have more money on hand they tend to use this money to grow their business, which means they need more employees with a variety of skills to perform the research and development, production, distribution and marketing of their good; as well as a larger number of supporting staff to look after the running of their business. As the economy becomes better and better the number of jobs available becomes greater than the available workforce and companies are required to pay higher wages for the same job to attract potential employees.

Locally, I have seen this happen when companies had to put up (large) signs on the side of the road to inform people that they could earn $22 per hour to stock shelves after hours at stores. I have seen companies agressively promote low level employees from "The Mail Room" or "The Loading Docs" to take on higher paying office jobs without any (appropriate) experience because they needed someone to fill that position.

 

No private industry would build Seattle's light rail transit system because the ridership is awful because it is designed to fill a need that no-one has. Now, when you spend (at least) 10 times what a private company could produce something, and there is no interest in it because it offers such little value, why would you assume that it was delivered efficiently?



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TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Why?

So should everything work this way? Should I show my W2 to Burger King, so they can adjust accordingly how much to charge me for food?

No, if you are having trouble paying for food you should stick to Burger King and not visit high-end french restaurant.

I can eat for a week on what Burger King cost, so based on basic needs, it's like a high-end french restaurant.

It would be interesting to see what it cost to live a minimum life, without being a burden on anyone. I bet it's very little.

I would consider Burger King a luxury as well. 

If you wanted to find out how little someone could eat on, you should include things that constitue a healthy diet in your equation.  I could only eat 25 cent Ramen which would add up to $5 a week (not factoring water, electricity, etc.), but I would be horribly malnurished.



ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Why?

So should everything work this way? Should I show my W2 to Burger King, so they can adjust accordingly how much to charge me for food?

No, if you are having trouble paying for food you should stick to Burger King and not visit high-end french restaurant.

I can eat for a week on what Burger King cost, so based on basic needs, it's like a high-end french restaurant.

It would be interesting to see what it cost to live a minimum life, without being a burden on anyone. I bet it's very little.

I would consider Burger King a luxury as well. 

If you wanted to find out how little someone could eat on, you should include things that constitue a healthy diet in your equation.  I could only eat 25 cent Ramen which would add up to $5 a week (not factoring water, electricity, etc.), but I would be horribly malnurished.

5 bucks a week @ 25 cents each? You have gotten spoiled in this country I see. You can easily live on one meal a day, or every other day. hundreds of millions of people do it as we speak.



ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:
TheRealMafoo said:
ManusJustus said:

I agree with many of your statements.  Which I shy I dont understand why you would want to put a flat tax on everyone.  Surely a poor person who spends most of his money on basic essentials shouldnt pay the same rate as a rich person who spends much of their money on frivolous items.

Why?

So should everything work this way? Should I show my W2 to Burger King, so they can adjust accordingly how much to charge me for food?

No, if you are having trouble paying for food you should stick to Burger King and not visit high-end french restaurant.

I can eat for a week on what Burger King cost, so based on basic needs, it's like a high-end french restaurant.

It would be interesting to see what it cost to live a minimum life, without being a burden on anyone. I bet it's very little.

I would consider Burger King a luxury as well. 

If you wanted to find out how little someone could eat on, you should include things that constitue a healthy diet in your equation.  I could only eat 25 cent Ramen which would add up to $5 a week (not factoring water, electricity, etc.), but I would be horribly malnurished.

Potatos and a glass of Milk provide all the nutriets someone needs to live a healthy life.  Remarkable foodstuff Potatos... for what it's worth.

You can get a 5 pound bag for as little as a buck.

Milk is pretty pricey though.



Squilliam said:
HappySqurriel said:
ManusJustus said:

We aren't talking about time, we are talking about money.  The government doesnt tax you based on how much time you put into something.

So, are you are saying is that people who are poor should pay less taxes because they cant afford it?

 

No one is arguing that the poor should pay the same ammount of tax as the rich because (honestly) that isn't really possible. What people are saying is that the government should treat all people fairly, and everyone should pay the same tax rate. If a person makes 20 times as much money another person they should pay 20 times the ammount of cash ...

You may say that 20% of $50,000 is a greater burden than 20% of $1,000,000 and you're correct, but the benefit the government provides the person earning $50,000 is also far greater than the benefit the government is providing the person who earns $1,000,000 so it balances out.

Actually in both relative and absolute terms the person earning $1,000,000 benefits more than the person who earns $50,000.

The government protects property rights, I.P., security etc and provides the stability for large scale industry to thrive in a country. Without the existance of the government its likely that the person earning $50k could earn no more than $5k and the person earning 1000k could earn no more than $10k.

The only way someone is able to earn and retain a $1M income is due to protection of I.P., property rights, security (police etc), the enforcement of contracts etc. The most libertarian countries in the world are also the poorest because they have governments too weak to function.

So who should pay more for the upkeep of the police force? Someone who has more to steal?

So who should pay for the court system? Someone who has property of value to protect? Contracts to enforce?

So who should pay for the hospitals? Someone who benefits from a healthy society more than poorer individuals?

So who should pay for the schools? The people who benefit the most from an educated and able workforce?

 

 

 

I wasn't arguing that the government itself is not a big benefit to wealthy individuals, but what portion of the government's budget is devoted to the services you mentioned ...

Beyond that, even though the wealthy have more to steal they also are far better able to protect themself and there is no evidence that police forces spend a disproportionate portion of their budget protecting the wealthy.

Contract law and IP rights benefit the poor just as much as the wealthy. What prevents a large realestate developer from buying up mortgages and foreclosing on people to be able to buy land at a low price except for the legal system?

In what way does a wealthy person who buys their own healthcare benefit more from an individual getting free healthcare more than that person benefitted themself?

Wouldn't a person who received the education benefit the most from their education?



HappySqurriel said:
ManusJustus said:
HappySqurriel said:

Do you have problems with understanding someones argument and responding to it appropriately? What is so hard to understand about this:

"when taxes are low enough that companies thrive and unemployment is low the low wage earners have far more power to demand more equatible incomes because the companies cannot operate without their work."

If you insist on always increasing taxes on the top 5% of income earners to what extent do 95% of people have on keeping control on government spending?

the economy is better when the tax burden of everyone is minimalized to only cover the services that the government can provide more efficiently than the private sector.

Why can't people look at Seattle'slight rail transit system...

Wage earners dont demand more income, their income is decided by the free market.  It doesnt matter if you tax a company $100,000 or $1, if the free market values a software engineer at $60,000 a year that is how much he is going to make.

The government has to provide Seattle's light rail system because it the free market would never provide such a service.  There are public goods and private goods, and it so happens that the government is more efficient at providing public goods and the market is more efficient at providing private goods.  This is a simple economic fact, and if you think otherwise I ask you how efficient do you think the army would be if they depended on the free market to provide them with finances, or if you'd like paying a toll booth at every street corner?

Your idea that making people pay more or less taxes will change how they view government spending is a huge and incorrect assumption.  If someone pays $4,000 in taxes and you increase that to $5,000, a light bulb isnt going to flash in their head and change their view on government spending.

I think you have a massive lack of understanding how the free market works ...

If you have a certain number of companies, who each require a certain number of employees who have a certain skill set, then depending on the quantity of people with that skillset relative to the number demanded determines a person's wage...

If companies have more money on hand they tend to use this money to grow their business, which means they need more employees with a variety of skills to perform the research and development, production, distribution and marketing of their good; as well as a larger number of supporting staff to look after the running of their business. As the economy becomes better and better the number of jobs available becomes greater than the available workforce and companies are required to pay higher wages for the same job to attract potential employees.

Locally, I have seen this happen when companies had to put up (large) signs on the side of the road to inform people that they could earn $22 per hour to stock shelves after hours at stores. I have seen companies agressively promote low level employees from "The Mail Room" or "The Loading Docs" to take on higher paying office jobs without any (appropriate) experience because they needed someone to fill that position.

 

No private industry would build Seattle's light rail transit system because the ridership is awful because it is designed to fill a need that no-one has. Now, when you spend (at least) 10 times what a private company could produce something, and there is no interest in it because it offers such little value, why would you assume that it was delivered efficiently?


Thats exactly what I said by "the free market decides wages by labor supply and demand" without going into detail.

Companies grow based on how profitable it is to grow.  If a rich businessman's company has maximized profits, giving him a tax break will not give him an incentive to hire more employees.

There is a demand for mass transit.  Unfortunately for America, the free market (automobile industry) destroyed America's light rail system to make cars more profitable.  Ford actually set up a puppet company to buy light rail companies and replace them with inefficient bus systems, pusing people to choose cars as their means of transport, and the head of America's Transportation Cabinet was a former Ford CEO so he had no problem with this.  The problem is that with high gasoline prices and congested roadways, there is an increasing demand for light rail and the cost of rebuilding light rail after it is already gone is huge.

Light rail may sound costly now, but its worth the price when you consider increasing energy costs and road congestion that will greatly increase demand for light rail in the future.  Its kind of like the story of Noah's Ark, everybody thought it was silly until it started raining.