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Forums - General - They myth that is man made global warming.

Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
elprincipe said:
Final-Fan said:
^ That's interesting stuff. The Arctic ice is shrinking while the Antarctic ice is increasing (and seems to be much more volatile).

As for hurricanes, I thought the problem was that they were fewer in number, but they ones that we got were more damaging. It's better to have lots of weak ones than several monsters, right?

The ice is fascinating to watch.  It should tell you that you're not getting the full picture if you consider that, as all the media was hyping the "lowest-ever" ice extent for the Arctic in 2007 (remember, this has only been measured accurately since 1979), you saw no articles even mention that the Antarctic ice extent was the highest ever recorded that very same year.  The Arctic ice last year increased 9% and the Antarctic ice decreased slightly from its record high.  But again, we have been measuring these things for such a short period of time it's extemely difficult to draw meaningful conclusions.  Thirty years is nothing at all on a geologic time scale, not even a blink.

I'm not as familiar with hurricanes other than the raw numbers.  There has been more damage in recent years from them, but remember that more people are living on the coasts now so there is more and more to destroy.  Hurricanes are highly variable in terms of numbers and intensity, so it's also something where it's very difficult to derive a pattern.  I've heard that ocean current patterns cause a 20- or 30-year cycle for hurricanes.  Also heard that global warming would increase their intensity.  However, 3,000 buoys launched in 2003 have shown a decrease in ocean heat content, so I'm having a hard time seeing how this fits into that theory:

It would depend on where the buoys were, I should think.  3,000 sounds like a lot, but for the whole damn world ocean?  Not so much, as Jon would say.  Also it would depend on where the heat is (hurricanes aren't globally random). 

So let me see if I got this right. 3000 buoys were released into the ocean and show a cooling, but you disagree with those finding why?

If I had to guess, it's because you don't like that answer.

If those 3000 buoys showed the oceans were warming, you would call it indispensable evidence. Funny how that works.

I'm disappointed, Mafoo.  He practically asked me for a reason to question those findings, which I produced.  Then you ask me why I would question it right after I said why.  You're not even trying.  Have a bad day? 

If they said it was warming, I would still wonder how representative the buoy spread was.  Like I said, 3000 sounds like a lot until you remember how incredibly huge the oceans are. 

Just talking out my ass here, so feel free to disregard this, but...

Your point about the buoys vs. the size of the ocean is well-taken.  Doesn't the complaint against many of these global warming doomsday projections often come down to much the same thing?  Meaning that, we collect data, but the data we collect is generally coming from some handful of reporting stations... or has only been collected over some limited number of years... and then we extrapolate that data out and try to decide what the world entire is going to look like fifty, a hundred years from now?  (Seems somewhat antithetical to the big points Ian Malcolm tried to make in Jurassic Park...)

That said, I don't think we should discount the data collected from any buoy, let alone 3,000... nor should we give it undue weight and decide that it overturns the seeming consensus on global warming.  But if our current theory holds that the ocean is warming, but our data comes back indicating that the ocean is actually cooling... well, if I were a scientist, I'd not feel comfortable till I'd cleared that up somehow.



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So many biased-conservatism-republican-christians-in-denial comments.... it makes me sick...



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

(I'm warning you now, my english is bad and my explanation are usually a bit confuse)

CO2 concentration as been increasing exponencialy since industrial era and CO2 is one of the gases responsible for greenhouse effect.

Stronger greenhouse effect leads to higher atmosphere temperature, wich can have more water vapor (the biggest responsible for greenhouse effect). So, +CO2 -> +temperature -> +H20 -> + temperature...

Equator is much more heated than poles by increasing of the atmosphere temperature. This will increase the flux of energy from the equator to the poles aka haddley circulation. Haddley circulation makes the air rise in the equator (forming clouds and rain) and fall at latitudes of 30º (forming desert regions). The strengthening of this circulation result in a wider tropical belt (region where the air rises) leading desert regions to stay above latitudes of 30º.
Another transporter of energy from the equator to the poles are the hurricanes that with strenghening of the poleward circulation are much more likely to appear.

Basically this is just a climate change and i believe that we do not need to get much alarmed, our country might be flooded by the sea level rise (I'm watching you nederlands) or be devastated by desertification (like the mediterranean countries). But this will happen gradually and a lot of things may change before, even without the man having to do anything.

ps: honestly i didn't read the OP, i'm just exposing my knowledgement into the discusion.



donathos said:

Just talking out my ass here, so feel free to disregard this, but...

Your point about the buoys vs. the size of the ocean is well-taken.  Doesn't the complaint against many of these global warming doomsday projections often come down to much the same thing?  Meaning that, we collect data, but the data we collect is generally coming from some handful of reporting stations... or has only been collected over some limited number of years... and then we extrapolate that data out and try to decide what the world entire is going to look like fifty, a hundred years from now?  (Seems somewhat antithetical to the big points Ian Malcolm tried to make in Jurassic Park...)

That said, I don't think we should discount the data collected from any buoy, let alone 3,000... nor should we give it undue weight and decide that it overturns the seeming consensus on global warming.  But if our current theory holds that the ocean is warming, but our data comes back indicating that the ocean is actually cooling... well, if I were a scientist, I'd not feel comfortable till I'd cleared that up somehow.

Well, I think there are considerably more than 3000 data collection points being used in studying climate change, and a lot longer than 6 years (as in the case of the ocean buoys).  But it's true that 3000 buoys for 6 years is still a large sample, and if it appears to be contrary to what we would expect we must find out why.  A conscientiously inquisitive person would investigate the situation.  That is why my first question was "where are the buoys?" 



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A couple of articles from the weekend:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/5664069/Polar-bear-expert-barred-by-global-warmists.html

Over the coming days a curiously revealing event will be taking place in Copenhagen. Top of the agenda at a meeting of the Polar Bear Specialist Group (set up under the International Union for the Conservation of Nature/Species Survival Commission) will be the need to produce a suitably scary report on how polar bears are being threatened with extinction by man-made global warming.

This is one of a steady drizzle of events planned to stoke up alarm in the run-up to the UN's major conference on climate change in Copenhagen next December. But one of the world's leading experts on polar bears has been told to stay away from this week's meeting, specifically because his views on global warming do not accord with those of the rest of the group.

Dr Mitchell Taylor has been researching the status and management of polar bears in Canada and around the Arctic Circle for 30 years, as both an academic and a government employee. More than once since 2006 he has made headlines by insisting that polar bear numbers, far from decreasing, are much higher than they were 30 years ago. Of the 19 different bear populations, almost all are increasing or at optimum levels, only two have for local reasons modestly declined.

Dr Taylor agrees that the Arctic has been warming over the last 30 years. But he ascribes this not to rising levels of CO2 – as is dictated by the computer models of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and believed by his PBSG colleagues – but to currents bringing warm water into the Arctic from the Pacific and the effect of winds blowing in from the Bering Sea.

He has also observed, however, how the melting of Arctic ice, supposedly threatening the survival of the bears, has rocketed to the top of the warmists' agenda as their most iconic single cause. The famous photograph of two bears standing forlornly on a melting iceberg was produced thousands of times by Al Gore, the WWF and others as an emblem of how the bears faced extinction – until last year the photographer, Amanda Byrd, revealed that the bears, just off the Alaska coast, were in no danger. Her picture had nothing to do with global warming and was only taken because the wind-sculpted ice they were standing on made such a striking image.

Dr Taylor had obtained funding to attend this week's meeting of the PBSG, but this was voted down by its members because of his views on global warming. The chairman, Dr Andy Derocher, a former university pupil of Dr Taylor's, frankly explained in an email (which I was not sent by Dr Taylor) that his rejection had nothing to do with his undoubted expertise on polar bears: "it was the position you've taken on global warming that brought opposition".

Dr Taylor was told that his views running "counter to human-induced climate change are extremely unhelpful". His signing of the Manhattan Declaration – a statement by 500 scientists that the causes of climate change are not CO2 but natural, such as changes in the radiation of the sun and ocean currents – was "inconsistent with the position taken by the PBSG".

So, as the great Copenhagen bandwagon rolls on, stand by this week for reports along the lines of "scientists say polar bears are threatened with extinction by vanishing Arctic ice". But also check out Anthony Watt's Watts Up With That website for the latest news of what is actually happening in the Arctic. The average temperature at midsummer is still below zero, the latest date that this has happened in 50 years of record-keeping. After last year's recovery from its September 2007 low, this year's ice melt is likely to be substantially less than for some time. The bears are doing fine.

 

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/06/27/lawrence-solomon-dupont-s-new-game.aspx

n the 1800s, DuPont’s first century as an industrial concern, it cashed in on the money to be made in explosives. In its second century, the 1900s, DuPont morphed into a money machine in chemistry and energy. In this, its third century, DuPont sees green in a new cash cow, one it projects will take it to unprecedented profitability — sustainable development.

This corporate strategy, explains chairman Chad Holliday, is both principled and fundamental: “DuPont’s sustainability commitments aren’t just good for business — they are our business.”

DuPont’s commitment to sustainability began in 1997 when it decided to abandon its membership in The Global Climate Coalition, a high-powered lobby created by the oil, gas, coal, automobile and chemical companies to counter fears of global warming. Although the coalition had been created in 1989, soon after the first meeting of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the coalition was losing the PR battle. DuPont switched sides and began to lobby for government to stop global warming.

In doing so, DuPont took a page out of its own playbook. In 1980, DuPont had spearheaded the creation of the Alliance for Responsible CFC Policy, a lobby group that would successfully fight off regulation of CFCs, a chemical that many companies manufactured. Then in 1986, with patented alternatives to CFCs in hand, DuPont had a change of heart.

In a move its Alliance partners considered a betrayal, DuPont switched sides, called CFCs a danger to the planet, and lobbied the Reagan Administration to ban CFCs. So successful was DuPont that Ronald Reagan became the world’s first head of state to personally push his government to ban CFCs. DuPont’s efforts culminated in the Montreal Protocol, a treaty Reagan described as “a monumental achievement.”

Others were ambivalent about what had transpired. As put by Mostafa Tolba, the Executive Director of the UN Environment Programme, “The difficulties in negotiating the Montreal Protocol had nothing whatever to do with whether the environment was damaged or not. It was all who was going to gain an edge over who; whether DuPont would have an advantage over the European companies or not.”

The advantage went to DuPont, which soon controlled the rich replacement market for CFCs. Du Pont’s Freon Division Director, Joseph Glass, laid out DuPont’s coup succinctly: “When you have $3-billion of CFCs sold worldwide and 70% of that is about to be regulated out of existence, there is a tremendous market potential.”

DuPont is now keen to duplicate its “monumental achievement” with other regulatory coups in the richest regulatory environment of all — that of global warming. To this end, it helped found the United States Climate Action Partnership (USCAP), a coalition of blue-chip business and environmental groups, to lobby the U.S. government for legislation that will suit their agenda. From DuPont’s point of view, USCAP has been another monumental achievement. Yesterday, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a global warming bill — largely a USCAP product — that represents the largest transfer of wealth from U.S. consumers to corporate interests in history. As DuPont’s Holliday told the committee with evident satisfaction, “we are pleased to see that many of the ideas we have developed are reflected in this bill.”

As well he should be. The mammoth bill’s cap-and-trade system not only gives DuPont and other major emitters a windfall in free emission allowances, but also boosts a host of the technologies that DuPont specializes in. As a cherry on top, DuPont will not only receive subsidies for upgrades and other investments it would have made regardless, it could even receive subsidies for such investments made before the bill was passed.

The bill, though endorsed by environmental groups happy with the grand bargain being made, is not without controversy. Greenpeace opposes the bill on numerous grounds, not least because of its corporate giveaways and because it would spur a new generation of coal and nuclear power plants. Other environmentalists deplore its boost to biofuels, and the effect that carbon offsets can have on the Third World’s environment. But though the bill’s environmental benefits are in doubt, there are no doubts as to its effect on DuPont’s bottom line.

After it helped found USCAP two years ago, DuPont predicted that by 2015 it would be able to grow its annual greenhouse-gas related revenues by at least $2-billion a year, and that its sales of renewable materials that displace fossil fuels would double to $8-billion. If the bill does indeed become law, DuPont’s estimates will look awfully sustainable. As will those of the legions of other corporations whose lobbying has made climate change the world’s largest industry with the world’s largest payoffs for those skilled at gaming the system.



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Scientific censorship ... for teh poler barez!



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Sardauk said:

So many biased-conservatism-republican-christians-in-denial comments.... it makes me sick...

I started this thread, and I am not conservative, not a republican, and am an atheist.

So, could you please step away from your political box and just look at the science.

 

Oh, and Final-Fan,

Get a world map, a sharpie, and put 3000 dots on the ocean areas and get back to me. It's a huge amount of data points for collecting data.

I am sure when you are done, there would be no place on the globe that a hurricane could pass without encountering dozens of data points.



TheRealMafoo said:
Sardauk said:

So many biased-conservatism-republican-christians-in-denial comments.... it makes me sick...

I started this thread, and I am not conservative, not a republican, and am an atheist.

So, could you please step away from your political box and just look at the science.

 

Isn't a conservative worst than an average republican ?(Ok I stop, it isn't very constructive...).

Maybe it is because we are surrounded by different media point of view... but here it is full full full GW and what goes around it....

Non-stop broadcast and scientific articles from different source and in different serious medias... (I mostly read "Le Monde" and I'm living not far from the European Commission complex and they advertise of lot about green market..).



 

Evan Wells (Uncharted 2): I think the differences that you see between any two games has much more to do with the developer than whether it’s on the Xbox or PS3.

TheRealMafoo said:
Sardauk said:

So many biased-conservatism-republican-christians-in-denial comments.... it makes me sick...

I started this thread, and I am not conservative, not a republican, and am an atheist.

So, could you please step away from your political box and just look at the science.

Oh, and Final-Fan,

Get a world map, a sharpie, and put 3000 dots on the ocean areas and get back to me. It's a huge amount of data points for collecting data.

I am sure when you are done, there would be no place on the globe that a hurricane could pass without encountering dozens of data points.

Assuming maximum spread, are we? 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The ocean as been cooling this last decade... But it can't be used to show a patern on the climate. We need at least 30 years to have some significance on the results.
Did the study (about the 3000 buoys) said how much the ocean cooled compared to how much it heated before that period?