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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Next-gen console war: The verdict by mcvuk.com

MikeB on 04 October 2007

@ HappySqurriel

Except (of course) that no publisher in their right mind is going to spend $10 Million (or potentially more) to create graphically enhanced versions


I don't think it will cost much to create higher res, little more effects, little more detail graphics for games like Wii Sports, just a bit better graphics to better suit HDTV owners. The PS3 version doesn't need to be overly complex or anything like that. For simple games, it would probably be cheap and probably devs could just use a slightly modified version of their Wii game engine, not needing to adapt anything for the SPEs at all.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

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sieanr on 04 October 2007
MikeB said:
@ naznatips

In fact, there is only once in history that the strongest console one the generation and that's the SNES.


The Snes wasn't very powerful, it was about on par with the Sega MegaDrive and much weaker specced than the Neo Geo. So your "rule" still seems to apply.

No seriously, IMO the Snes won because of:

1) Strong popular franchises -> Mario, Zelda, Star Fox, Metroid, and Donkey Kong.
2) Brand recognition and reputation -> The NES was the best sold game console at the time.
3) Cheap.

Now if I compare this to the Playstation 3 situation, there's only a lot of work to do for point 3. But we also know, people are willing to pay for better specs (higher specced 60GB PS3 vs 20 GB PS3 sales), so Sony can aim to educate people on the advantages of better specifications before the PS3 makes it to mass market pricing.

IMO you underestimate the SNES

You see, the SNES is just like the Amiga. The SNES had a, more or less, off the shelf CPU, but just like the Amiga it had custom sound and graphics chips. The PPU in the SNES could do advanced features like mode 7, as well as sprite scaling and rotation the MD could never equal until the Sega CD. Furthermore, the sound chip was very advanced, being able to do stero and simulate surround sound in some cases, as well as having higher sound quality than its competitiors. 

It took developers with the Amiga time to fully grasp what the system was capable of, and the same can be said of the SNES. Furthermore, the SNES could have add on chips in the carts which considerable advanced what was capable in the games, ie Starfox, Mario Cart, Yoshis Island, ect. This is similar to how the Amiga had hardware upgrades. The Genesis could do something similar, but add-on chips were used in only a handful of games and were never in any very popular games.

Like the Amiga, the SNES suffered from inferior ports early on. Many early SNES games had slowdown and were quick and dirty ports of MD games. With time, SNES developers came to terms with the hardware and like their Amiga counterparts pulled off things people thought wasn't possible on the hardware - Donkey Kong Country. Also like the Amiga the SNES had a slower processor than its competeitors clock wise (vs the MD), however the SNES CPU could do more calculations per second and was thus actualy faster than its competitor.

The MD had a PPU that was the development of the PPU in the Master System, which was a development of a Texas Instruments PPU used in a console/PC hybrid they made far earlier. While the CPU of the MD was fast, it was tasked with doing most of the actual work in the system. The SNES was just like the Amiga in the sense that the PPU and sound chip took considerable strain off the CPU, freeing it up to do other things.

MikeB, for a system so similar to the Amiga you sure seem quick to dismiss it. This is odd given how interested you are in the similarities of the PS3 to the amiga - even though an comparison is forced as the two systems are only similar in the sense that they are a type of computer and make math calculations really really fast. IMO the SNES is far more like the Amiga is every way imaginable, and thus shouldn't be dismissed. 

IMO people bought the SNES becuase of the similarities to the Amiga, thus justifying any compariosons people make between the SNES even when they barely make sense; especially if those comparisons are by a company in press material.




Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

MikeB on 04 October 2007

@ sieanr

You try to be funny?

The Snes was built to be cheap.

The Amiga in 1985 was the first PC to display photographs in up to 4096 colors simultaneously (while PCs and Macs usually only offered 2 colors), the sound chip offered great quality stereo audio even today capable of playing back near CD quality MP3s (while the PC could only beep internally and the Mac was silent), it had a pre-emptive multitasking operating system (while mac and PC were single tasking for a decade to come), does that sound cheap to you like a Snes?

Anyhow a lowend homecomputer model based on these specs was released in 1987, the Amiga 500:

Amiga 500 game examples:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zDQUQwrBTM4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zCqLqj3QOEQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bEJpvUVPCtw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1E4QwETXZ5o

The Snes is 1990's hardware, released in Europe and Australia in 1992. IMO nothing really topped its launch title Super Mario World, there didn't seem to be any real learning curve for developers and not much more hardware potential to tap into. IMO the Snes was lacking severely in game gerne varierty.

The Snes was a lowly specced game console, hence cheap.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

LordTheNightKnight on 04 October 2007
sieanr said:
MikeB said:
@ naznatips

In fact, there is only once in history that the strongest console one the generation and that's the SNES.


The Snes wasn't very powerful, it was about on par with the Sega MegaDrive and much weaker specced than the Neo Geo. So your "rule" still seems to apply.

No seriously, IMO the Snes won because of:

1) Strong popular franchises -> Mario, Zelda, Star Fox, Metroid, and Donkey Kong.
2) Brand recognition and reputation -> The NES was the best sold game console at the time.
3) Cheap.

Now if I compare this to the Playstation 3 situation, there's only a lot of work to do for point 3. But we also know, people are willing to pay for better specs (higher specced 60GB PS3 vs 20 GB PS3 sales), so Sony can aim to educate people on the advantages of better specifications before the PS3 makes it to mass market pricing.

IMO you underestimate the SNES

You see, the SNES is just like the Amiga. The SNES had a, more or less, off the shelf CPU, but just like the Amiga it had custom sound and graphics chips. The PPU in the SNES could do advanced features like mode 7, as well as sprite scaling and rotation the MD could never equal until the Sega CD. Furthermore, the sound chip was very advanced, being able to do stero and simulate surround sound in some cases, as well as having higher sound quality than its competitiors.

It took developers with the Amiga time to fully grasp what the system was capable of, and the same can be said of the SNES. Furthermore, the SNES could have add on chips in the carts which considerable advanced what was capable in the games, ie Starfox, Mario Cart, Yoshis Island, ect. This is similar to how the Amiga had hardware upgrades. The Genesis could do something similar, but add-on chips were used in only a handful of games and were never in any very popular games.

Like the Amiga, the SNES suffered from inferior ports early on. Many early SNES games had slowdown and were quick and dirty ports of MD games. With time, SNES developers came to terms with the hardware and like their Amiga counterparts pulled off things people thought wasn't possible on the hardware - Donkey Kong Country. Also like the Amiga the SNES had a slower processor than its competeitors clock wise (vs the MD), however the SNES CPU could do more calculations per second and was thus actualy faster than its competitor.

The MD had a PPU that was the development of the PPU in the Master System, which was a development of a Texas Instruments PPU used in a console/PC hybrid they made far earlier. While the CPU of the MD was fast, it was tasked with doing most of the actual work in the system. The SNES was just like the Amiga in the sense that the PPU and sound chip took considerable strain off the CPU, freeing it up to do other things.

MikeB, for a system so similar to the Amiga you sure seem quick to dismiss it. This is odd given how interested you are in the similarities of the PS3 to the amiga - even though an comparison is forced as the two systems are only similar in the sense that they are a type of computer and make math calculations really really fast. IMO the SNES is far more like the Amiga is every way imaginable, and thus shouldn't be dismissed.

IMO people bought the SNES becuase of the similarities to the Amiga, thus justifying any compariosons people make between the SNES even when they barely make sense; especially if those comparisons are by a company in press material.



 I'll give the SNES is more powerful than the Mega Drive (although that system was not slouch with 2D graphics), but you forgot about the Neo-Geo.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Words Of Wisdom on 04 October 2007
MikeB said:

IMO the Snes was lacking severely in game gerne varierty.

Your opinion is an uneducated one if this is to be believed.



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sieanr on 04 October 2007
MikeB said:
@ sieanr

You try to be funny?

The Snes was built to be cheap.

The Amiga in 1985 was the first PC to display photographs in up to 4096 colors simultaneously (while PCs and Macs usually only offered 2 colors), the sound chip offered great quality stereo audio even today capable of playing back near CD quality MP3s (while the PC could only beep internally and the Mac was silent), it had a pre-emptive multitasking operating system (while mac and PC were single tasking for a decade to come), does that sound cheap to you like a Snes?

Anyhow a lowend homecomputer model based on these specs was released in 1987, the Amiga 500:

Amiga 500 game examples:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zDQUQwrBTM4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zCqLqj3QOEQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bEJpvUVPCtw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1E4QwETXZ5o

The Snes is 1990's hardware, released in Europe and Australia in 1992. IMO nothing really topped its launch title Super Mario World, there didn't seem to be any real learning curve for developers and not much more hardware potential to tap into. IMO the Snes was lacking severely in game gerne varierty.

The Snes was a lowly specced game console, hence cheap.

Didn't you claim that you've never owned a console before the PS3? If so, your claim that nothing beat SMW is suspect, just like you claim GOW2 is the best game visualy of last gen.

Furthermore, you've clearly never played Yoshis Island or DKC, which wiped the floor with SMW graphically. Oh, and the SNES sound chip could also produce near CD quality sound, its just that space was a concern on carts.

My comparison was speaking of how similar the design approach of the two consoles is, and last time I checked price doesn't dictate design approach. Both used powerful audio and visual coprocessors to take the strain off the CPU. This was different than the MD which had the CPU make up for the deficiencies of the sound and video processors. Certianly, you can agree that the custom PPU and Sound chip in this SNES is just like how the Amiga was designed. And surely you can agree that this is a far more valid comparison than a quirky processor being compared to the amiga.

Maybe some of your disdain for the SNES comes from the fact that it helped kill what was left of Amiga in the early 90s..

BTW, you may want to avoid bringing up the 500 - it wasn't the most powerful home computer of its era.

 

 I'll give the SNES is more powerful than the Mega Drive (although that system was not slouch with 2D graphics), but you forgot about the Neo-Geo.

I know about the Neo-Geo.

The thing is, it was originally arcade hardware. When SNK came around to making the AES (console verrsion) they only sold it to hotels. There was some demand from a very vocal, hardcore group of individuals and SNK decided to offer it to the public. The system was never really marketed to the mainstream and was never intended to capture a large market - it was just a profitable side project in SNKs eyes.

Strictly speaking, it can be counted. However, I think the Jaguar is a far better argument for power =/= winner, the Neo-Geo is just such an odd example.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

LordTheNightKnight on 04 October 2007

"IMO the Snes was lacking severely in game gerne varierty."

That's just a lie. Opinion's don't counter facts. You can claim you were not impressed by the games on the system, but it had variety, whether you want to admit it or not.

Just name a genre, that was around at the time.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Final-Fan on 04 October 2007
sieanr said:
MikeB said:
@ naznatips

In fact, there is only once in history that the strongest console one the generation and that's the SNES.


The Snes wasn't very powerful, it was about on par with the Sega MegaDrive and much weaker specced than the Neo Geo. So your "rule" still seems to apply.

No seriously, IMO the Snes won because of:

1) Strong popular franchises -> Mario, Zelda, Star Fox, Metroid, and Donkey Kong.
2) Brand recognition and reputation -> The NES was the best sold game console at the time.
3) Cheap.

Now if I compare this to the Playstation 3 situation, there's only a lot of work to do for point 3. But we also know, people are willing to pay for better specs (higher specced 60GB PS3 vs 20 GB PS3 sales), so Sony can aim to educate people on the advantages of better specifications before the PS3 makes it to mass market pricing.

IMO you underestimate the SNES

You see, the SNES is just like the Amiga. The SNES had a, more or less, off the shelf CPU, but just like the Amiga it had custom sound and graphics chips. The PPU in the SNES could do advanced features like mode 7, as well as sprite scaling and rotation the MD could never equal until the Sega CD. Furthermore, the sound chip was very advanced, being able to do stero and simulate surround sound in some cases, as well as having higher sound quality than its competitiors.

It took developers with the Amiga time to fully grasp what the system was capable of, and the same can be said of the SNES. Furthermore, the SNES could have add on chips in the carts which considerable advanced what was capable in the games, ie Starfox, Mario Cart, Yoshis Island, ect. This is similar to how the Amiga had hardware upgrades. The Genesis could do something similar, but add-on chips were used in only a handful of games and were never in any very popular games.

Like the Amiga, the SNES suffered from inferior ports early on. Many early SNES games had slowdown and were quick and dirty ports of MD games. With time, SNES developers came to terms with the hardware and like their Amiga counterparts pulled off things people thought wasn't possible on the hardware - Donkey Kong Country. Also like the Amiga the SNES had a slower processor than its competeitors clock wise (vs the MD), however the SNES CPU could do more calculations per second and was thus actualy faster than its competitor.

The MD had a PPU that was the development of the PPU in the Master System, which was a development of a Texas Instruments PPU used in a console/PC hybrid they made far earlier. While the CPU of the MD was fast, it was tasked with doing most of the actual work in the system. The SNES was just like the Amiga in the sense that the PPU and sound chip took considerable strain off the CPU, freeing it up to do other things.

MikeB, for a system so similar to the Amiga you sure seem quick to dismiss it. This is odd given how interested you are in the similarities of the PS3 to the amiga - even though an comparison is forced as the two systems are only similar in the sense that they are a type of computer and make math calculations really really fast. IMO the SNES is far more like the Amiga is every way imaginable, and thus shouldn't be dismissed.

IMO people bought the SNES becuase of the similarities to the Amiga, thus justifying any compariosons people make between the SNES even when they barely make sense; especially if those comparisons are by a company in press material.


 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 04 October 2007

I think the Jaguar is a far better argument for power =/= winner, the Neo-Geo is just such an odd example.


If the Neo-Geo was "odd", the Jaguar was the Fairy King. Even if it was significantly more powerful (was it really?) I understand that it had badly flawed hardware and that its controller was an abomination. Not to mention that Atari had a worse image at the time than Sega had circa Dreamcast. And the Jaguar had no good launch titles.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

sieanr on 05 October 2007
Final-Fan said:
I think the Jaguar is a far better argument for power =/= winner, the Neo-Geo is just such an odd example.


If the Neo-Geo was "odd", the Jaguar was the Fairy King. Even if it was significantly more powerful (was it really?) I understand that it had badly flawed hardware and that its controller was an abomination. Not to mention that Atari had a worse image at the time than Sega had circa Dreamcast. And the Jaguar had no good launch titles.

The jaguar was more powerful but had plenty of hardware issues and was wicked complex, with a shitty controller.

But it was designed and marketed as a home console, and it actualy sold surprisingly well at launch. Besides, even though the Atari name was battered, it was still reckognizable. SNK was only know by the "hardcore" and the Neo-Geo had nowhere near the availability of the Jag - not to mention its games cost 200-300 a piece.

 



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away"