Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
ironman said:
You sir, have no concept of how the free market works. If a business is shady, people will stop purchasing their product. A business that is legit, will get more business. And that is why I am against government control. They just mess up the way the free market works and clogs up the system. Tell me when the government has ever done something efficiently and correctly? I can site a few examples to the opposite. The DMV, Wellfare, Mass transit, Taxes, just to name a few. The kind of regulation the government is doing with the banks is actually going to do more harm than good. See, they are now forcing banks to make MORE bad loans (to fill a quota) in exchange for tax money. I say let the damn banks fail, let us go through a few months to a year of really tough stuff, and lets learn from the mistake. Of course, with Government at the reigns, history is destined to repeat itself. |
First off in europe there are many examples where government involvement has been a success, resulting in situations which the free market could not bring about, just shows that well designes government systems can work well.
Also you're a fool if you think that the free market will result in beneficial outcomes on its own, first off there is the fact that information is not always shared equally, and then their is the propensity for the market to become irrational, this current crisis is a good example of the irrationality of the market and of information not being equal.
Also during the Depression many of the banks were allowed to fail, guess what we had a decade of economic collapse, you really have no idea do you, allowing the banks to fail would be the dumbest move ever, without a functioning financial market money would not flow through the economy, people would hoarde their cash and unemployment would skyrocket.
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Except Europeon countries also see less economic growth and higher rates of unemployment.
Less government intervention largely coincides with larger government growth and lower unemployment.
Denmark aside due to flexicity which actually has a lot less government controls in a lot of areas in europe and even the rest of europe can't copy.
So it really depends on what you want your economy to do... much better with slight chances of systematic failure... (though the US economy is still better then most europeon economies GDP wise) or safer with slower growth.
The saftey of the section option usually seems mitigated by the growth of the first option though... such growth more then making up for what would be lost.
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Yes, but in europe, the social safety net protects people who are unemployed better, and while they may have less economic growth than in the US, its hardly a big problem, since some nations in eruope have higer GDP per capita than the US, much higher in some cases, like look at Norway, while others are around the US, like Ireland, and Switzerland, doesn't sound like they are suffering over there, In fact if you use the Human Development index measure, US trails much of Europe, Canada and Japan, also you assume that the higher growth would make up for what is lost, if the economy went into total metldown like it would have without the massive government bailouts and interventions, then what would have been lost would have vastly outstripped any gains
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The problem with the Human Development index measure is that it's one of very many... and it doesn't regulate out social differences... which you should know. Iceland was number 1 in the human index... and now it's bankrupt.
Additionally the problem with GDP per Capita is that you aren't using GDP per Capita when adjusted for Purchasing Parity Power. What's the point of having more money if it buys less stuff?
When adjusting for Purchasing Parity Power only 2 Europeon Countries are ahead of the US. Norway and Luxemburg.
Norway because of Oil and Luexemburg because it's so small really and they do a lot of financial work.
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Yeah and Iceland suffered because of all the bank failures, proof that letting banks fail is a bad idea, and the point remains that US still trails many nations that have much more government interevention and are not failing like Iceland did, Norway for example is way ahead of the US in HDI as well as GDP per Capita PPP
Yeah but Norway also has a much deeper social safety net, and lower unemployment than the US, so once again proving my point that a well thought out system can be much more beneficial than what we have in the US, look at Switzerland for example, slightly lower GDP per capita PPP and yet they do extrmely well in HDI measures.
I mean your argument is that the US without ithe same level of safety nets and government intervention is so far ahead of the world that it doesn't need it, but clearly that is far from the facts, many nations are in the same range as US in terms of GDP per capita PPP and yet outstrip it in overall quality of life, while having much more extensive government interventions
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1) The US is 15th. Switzerland is 10th. 5 spots isn't exactly "Way Ahead". In fact its .995 vs .991. Vs a $4,000 dollar difference in PPP... which is nearly a 10% drop.
Norway as I already stated was due to... Massive oil reserves. They are the Qatar of Europe.
2) Additionally onnce again... the HDI is flawed in this regard because it ignores cultural differences.
For example... life expectancy. The US has something like 400% the murders Switzerland has.
The other three factors are education... the US has a pretty crappy education system which has nothing to do with funding or government involvement. In fact our schooling has gotten worse since all the government involvement because the government dosen't know what the hell it's doing.
Additionally the country that ranked the highest in HDI the most is Canada I believe... which is slightly to the left of us... and a lot to the right of a lot of europeon countries.
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I would trade 4000 dollars to have reduced crime, universal health care and a better school system. Part of their culture is the fact that government is more involved Kaz, and the fact that they only surrender a few thousand, to have a much better quality of life isin my opinion an excellent trade
I totally agree that the US system sucks, the US sucks at alot of things compared to the rest of the world, but that just means we should take them as examples of what to do and not say that government is the problem because its not, bad government is bad, but good government results in a country like Norway or Switzerland or Denmark, where things succeed.
Canada may be to the right of many european nations, but they still have a stronger welfare and healthcare system than the US does, and higher life expectancies, etc.
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.995 is a LOT better then .991?
The problem with people like you is your so attached to one particlur system or way of belief you ignore all the confounding variables. I've given them to you time and time again in these threads and you always ignore them.
Government involvement has nothing to do with it. Other EUROPEON countries can't even figure out how to copy Norway, Switzerland or Denmark. Additionally it's not good government that got those countries where they were... it was... in order.
Oil, Shady banking practices, Being a small service based country that allowed them to combine free market polcies with a saftey net paid for by the government.
I'm not sure if you know how Denmark works... but 30% of their workforce are forced to change jobs EVERY YEAR. Can you imagine that in the US?
Or even in a country like France? Or anywhere where it's pretty much service based and most of the jobs are fairly interchangeble.
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Remember .995 and .991 are aggregates of multiple measures Kaz, including GDP per capita, so yeah its probably a substantial difference.
Actually no, that's not true, many of these countries have comparision figurres from where they were before the implementation of welfare and similar social programs to where they are now, and the values of poverty for example have gone down.
Even other european nations like france outstrip US in those measures KAZ, as does Canada and Japan, so even countries that can't copy the Swiss or the Norweigians manage to do a better job of supplying a standadrd of living than the US.
I'm not fixed in my viewpoints, its just that I haven't seen anything from you or anyone else that shows my view is wrong. I've pointed out many examples where government interevention does not harm a nation and in fact in many ways helps.
Maybe the US can't copy Denmark, but what about Canada? Canada's HDI figures is quite high and their GDP per capita PPP isn't that far below the US's they also have more robust social programs than the US.
Not all the countries with robust social programs and strong standards of living are so heavily different than the US, even the US has an economy almost 70% service based,most of the nations we've been discussing are in that range as well, around 70% service based
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