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Forums - General - Hows the economy doing?

HappySqurriel said:

Interest rates in the US are skyrocketing not because people are demaning more money but because people are demanding far less debt than is being produced ...

Essentially, the Federal Reserve takes the Treasury's debt, generates an IOU with a certain value and a date where they're going pay this out and sells it for a price lower than it value at maturity and this determines the interest rate that they talk about in their rate setting meetings. For example, selling a $100 treasury with a collection date 1 year in the future for $97.5 you end up with an interest rate that is (slightly more than) 2.5%.

Now, how this influences other interest rates is because this treasury debt is 100% safe and you will get that dollar value from the government at maturity so all other debt needs to have a premium in order to attract investors because of the risk they represent. For the past couple of weeks, there has been low demand for treasury bonds which has resulted in the government reducing the price they sell their bonds at and (therefore) increasing the interest rate of all debt.

 

The outcome from this will (likely) be that the treasury and federal reserve will push for more quantatitive easing (printing money) resulting in a devaluing of the dollar; and China could follow through on its threats and stop/slow down the purchase of US debt and/or (re)moving the peg with the US dollar, which would result in higher interest rates and higher inflation.

Maybe demand for bonds is low because the stock market has been on a three month rally and the rate of return putting your money there is much higher than putting it in treasury bonds, which even during a recession don't give that great of a return.  They are simply like a mattress where people stick there money to keep it safe.  When the stock market does better, they take it out of the mattress because there isn't much incentive to leave it in the mattress.

Furthermore, the people "demanding less debt" usually aren't in the securities market in the first place.

It will be great if China removes the peg to the U.S. dollar currently on the yuan.  That is one of the primary causes of the humongous trade deficit we have.  It gives China an unfair advantage on the world market and has hurt our economy in several different ways, including speeding up outsourcing.  And you are making a very simplistic argument that China unpegging its currency would hurt the U.S. dollar.  It is just as likely that it would benefit the U.S. dollar as it would change a lot of dynamics in the U.S.-China trade situation. 

There is a complex connection between the value of your currency, inflation, and interest rates.  There aren't any set rules as to what will happen when one changes.  It depends on a lot of factors what will actually end up happening.  I don't think you are recognizing this fact.

Plus at the same time you are saying we will see both higher interest rates and higher inflation, when normally those two forces are diametrically opposed except in rare instances of stagflation (which we have only seen once this century).



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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akuma587 said:
HappySqurriel said:

Interest rates in the US are skyrocketing not because people are demaning more money but because people are demanding far less debt than is being produced ...

Essentially, the Federal Reserve takes the Treasury's debt, generates an IOU with a certain value and a date where they're going pay this out and sells it for a price lower than it value at maturity and this determines the interest rate that they talk about in their rate setting meetings. For example, selling a $100 treasury with a collection date 1 year in the future for $97.5 you end up with an interest rate that is (slightly more than) 2.5%.

Now, how this influences other interest rates is because this treasury debt is 100% safe and you will get that dollar value from the government at maturity so all other debt needs to have a premium in order to attract investors because of the risk they represent. For the past couple of weeks, there has been low demand for treasury bonds which has resulted in the government reducing the price they sell their bonds at and (therefore) increasing the interest rate of all debt.

 

The outcome from this will (likely) be that the treasury and federal reserve will push for more quantatitive easing (printing money) resulting in a devaluing of the dollar; and China could follow through on its threats and stop/slow down the purchase of US debt and/or (re)moving the peg with the US dollar, which would result in higher interest rates and higher inflation.

Maybe demand for bonds is low because the stock market has been on a three month rally and the rate of return putting your money there is much higher than putting it in treasury bonds, which even during a recession don't give that great of a return. They are simply like a mattress where people stick there money to keep it safe. When the stock market does better, they take it out of the mattress because there isn't much incentive to leave it in the mattress.

Furthermore, the people "demanding less debt" usually aren't in the securities market in the first place.

It will be great if China removes the peg to the U.S. dollar currently on the yuan. That is one of the primary causes of the humongous trade deficit we have. It gives China an unfair advantage on the world market and has hurt our economy in several different ways, including speeding up outsourcing. And you are making a very simplistic argument that China unpegging its currency would hurt the U.S. dollar. It is just as likely that it would benefit the U.S. dollar as it would change a lot of dynamics in the U.S.-China trade situation.

There is a complex connection between the value of your currency, inflation, and interest rates. There aren't any set rules as to what will happen when one changes. It depends on a lot of factors what will actually end up happening. I don't think you are recognizing this fact.

Plus at the same time you are saying we will see both higher interest rates and higher inflation, when normally those two forces are diametrically opposed except in rare instances of stagflation (which we have only seen once this century).

Higher interest rates are always a direct consequence of higher inflation ...

If the yields available in the bond market do not keep pace with inflation investors pull their money out of the bond market and put it into other investments (stocks, commodities, and real-estate) that have an intrinsic value and therefore increase in value along with inflation. After this money leaves the market the prices of bonds fall, which results in a higher yield and (therefore) higher interest rates.

The growth of China's economy along with the Chineese peg on the American dollar has allowed the Federal reserve to keep interest rates artificially low and the American government to have very large deficits for decades without facing the consequences related to these actions. If the peg is moved or removed the American dollar will fall to a level which could cause other countries to dump some or all of their foreign holdings of American dollars; and this would probably result in the American dollar falling further and more countries dumping their reserves of American dollars. Overnight the American people could be facing hyper inflation



I can't even bring myself to discuss it, although I'm impressed by the depth of others discussions.

Right now I have so many friends taking pay cuts just to keep their jobs and companies afloat - it's been a damn ugly time.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

HappySqurriel said:
 

Higher interest rates are always a direct consequence of higher inflation ...

If the yields available in the bond market do not keep pace with inflation investors pull their money out of the bond market and put it into other investments (stocks, commodities, and real-estate) that have an intrinsic value and therefore increase in value along with inflation. After this money leaves the market the prices of bonds fall, which results in a higher yield and (therefore) higher interest rates.

The growth of China's economy along with the Chineese peg on the American dollar has allowed the Federal reserve to keep interest rates artificially low and the American government to have very large deficits for decades without facing the consequences related to these actions. If the peg is moved or removed the American dollar will fall to a level which could cause other countries to dump some or all of their foreign holdings of American dollars; and this would probably result in the American dollar falling further and more countries dumping their reserves of American dollars. Overnight the American people could be facing hyper inflation

So...wait...are you actually arguing that the yuan-dollar peg is a good thing for the American dollar?  Supporting manipulation of the free market?  If there has been one thing that has artificially increased our obscene trade deficit, it is this peg.  This has caused the U.S. dollar to depreciate without normalizing the balance with a reflection of an appreciation in China's currency.  If China's currency was allowed to fluctuate naturally, it would cause their currency to appreciate.  That it turn would increase demand for the U.S. dollar (by increasing Chinese demand for U.S. exports and decreasing U.S. demand for Chinese exports) and level out some of the consequent depreciative effect.

Once again, the link between depreciation and inflation is not direct.  The value of the dollar can depreciate while also deflating at the same time (like it is right now).  Fluctuations in the commodities market could also have some consequences on this debate as well, as I think it is hard to predict where commodities will go in the near to mid future.  Oil, for instance, may continue to rise or may plummet again. 

You are also assuming that all country's economies will be growing at equal rates at these speculative dates you are talking about in the future.  If the U.S.'s economy emerges out of the recession stronger and faster than other countries (which many signs suggest it will), it will increase tax revenues and offset a significant portion of the national debt relative to GDP while other countries are still in the doldrums of a recession.  This can have a major effect on currency markets.

Too many of you are looking at this from only one angle.  China, for instance, has an incentive to KEEP purchasing U.S. debt because if the dollar depreciates, that means that the amount of revenue it will gain from the U.S. purchasing its exports (pretty much the primary reason its economy has been growing so steadily) will significantly dry up, thereby causing significant contractions in Chinese exports.  Why do you think they put the yuan-dollar peg on their currency in the first place?



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

And ironically this discussion takes place amidst a rally in favor of the dollar.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/

$USDEUR   0.0123493 1.73% 0.726533
$USDJPY   -0.3801969 -0.39% 98.045
$USDGBP   0.0066053 1.09% 0.6150629
$USDCAD   0.0180095 1.61% 1.135815
$USDAUD   0.0321808 2.61% 1.26295

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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kowenicki said:
UK economy is the best in Europe because Europe has a common policy for all nations... that cant work. Also Europe has buried its head in the sand too much.

btw someone here said the UK economy grew last month... it didnt.. and probably wont until 2010.

Economic output grew last month by 0.3%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8092780.stm



Wow, that was weird, I completely skipped the word "industrial" when I skimmed through that, so, yeah, the services industry probably still died a little.

The fact that the rise was surprising just shows how unpredictable economics can be, to be honest. If expert analysts can't predict growth or recession in the next month, how on earth can they predict what's happening in 2010?

 

EDIT: Just read this in one of the spin-off articles from that one:

More independent economists are coming round to the view that the chancellor's forecast of a fall of 3.5% over the whole of this year, with a recovery beginning towards the end of the year, is perfectly feasible.

As I said, I don't really think that predictions are at all accurate, but if Darling was right about it all (whether he got lucky with a pin through the paper, or his accountants he's paying for on the expenses got it right), that could bode well (well, better) for Labour's general election next year.



From a lot of the information I have looked at, the UK is actually in the best position of all the EU nations in spite of people recently freaking about government spending there as excessively wasteful.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
From a lot of the information I have looked at, the UK is actually in the best position of all the EU nations in spite of people recently freaking about government spending there as excessively wasteful.

Your kidding right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Economies_of_member_states

They are not the worst, but sure as hell not the best.



Some hard evidence of the continuing debt collapse and wealth loss:

http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/new-hard-evidence-of-continuing-debt-collapse-3-34207

Here are the facts:

  • We witnessed one of the biggest collapses of all time in “open market paper” — mostly short-term credit provided to finance mortgages, auto loans, and other businesses. Instead of growing as it had in almost every prior quarter in history, it collapsed at the annual rate of $662.5 billion. (See line 2.)

     

  • Banks lending went into the toilet. Even in the fourth quarter, when the meltdown struck, banks were still growing their loan portfolios at an annual pace of $839.7 billion. But in the first quarter, they did far more than just cut back on new lending. They actually took in loan repayments (or called in existing loans) at a much faster pace than they extended new ones! They literally pulled out of the credit markets at the astonishing pace of $856.4 billion per year, their biggest cutback of all time (line 7).

     

  • Meanwhile, nonbank lenders (line 8) pulled out at the annual rate of $468 billion, also the worst on record.

     

  • Mortgage lenders (line 9) pulled out for a third straight month. (Their worst on record was in the prior quarter.)

     

  • And consumers (line 10) were shoved out of the market for credit at the annual pace of $90.7 billion, the worst on record.

     

  • The ONLY major player still borrowing money in big amounts was the United States Treasury Department (line 3), sopping up $1,442.8 billion of the credit available — and leaving LESS than nothing for the private sector as a whole.

Bottom line: The first quarter brought the greatest credit collapse of all time.

For the long-term health of our country, less debt is not a bad thing. But for 2009 and the years ahead, it’s likely to be traumatic, delivering …

The Most Wealth Losses of All Time

Who is suffering the biggest and most pervasive losses? U.S. households and nonprofit organizations (page 105)!

The losses have been across the board — in real estate, stocks, mutual funds, family businesses, life insurance policies, and pension funds.

In U.S. households alone, the losses have been massive: $1.39 trillion in the third and fourth quarters of 2007 (not shown on page 105) … a gigantic $10.89 trillion in 2008 … $1.33 trillion in the first quarter of 2009 … $13.87 trillion in all, by far the worst of all time.

And these losses have equally massive consequences for 2009 and 2010:

  • Deep cutbacks in consumer spending ahead, plus a virtual disappearance of conspicuous consumption …
  • More massive sales declines at most of America’s giant manufacturers, retail firms, transportation companies, restaurants, and more, plus …
  • Big losses replacing profits at most U.S. corporations!

Can Mr. Bernanke take even MORE radical steps? Can he trek where no other modern-day central banker has ever gone before?

Not without shooting himself in the foot! It still won’t be enough to avert a continuation of the debt crisis. Indeed, all it can accomplish is to kindle inflation fears, drive interest rates even higher, and actually sabotage any revival in the credit markets.

Look. The nearly $14 trillion in financial losses suffered by U.S. households has inevitable consequences. And massive, nonstop borrowings by the U.S. Treasury in the months ahead — driving interest rates still higher — can only make them worse.

My urgent warning: If you fall for Wall Street’s siren song that “the crisis is over,” you could be in for a fatal surprise.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957