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Forums - Microsoft - Exposed: Natel Milo smoke and mirrors by Peter Molyneux

Staude on 07 June 2009

Well regardless. The 360 can't do skynet cause it doesn't have the cell.

Because it doesn't have the cell, it can never absorb android 17 and 18 and evolve into arnold swartznegger to rule california and all the crasy people in hollywood.



Check out my game about moles ^

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JaggedSac on 07 June 2009
MikeB said:
From MTV multiplayer:

"So what was technology and what was a trick? It appeared that Milo’s ability to recognize actual words is completely AWOL at the moment. Former MTVer Stephen Totilo joined me for my meeting, and Stephen’s attempts to interact with Milo resulted in mere quaint smiles and frowns. Molyneux went on to say that players must “train Milo to their voice.” That may be, but based on this demo there’s still a lot of ground to cover."

So it appears the technology (at least at this point) is not nearly advanced enough to allow a random user to interact (for example a gaming friend). Possibly bad articulation or dialect will have an affect on the effectiveness of this technology, let alone if people want to play in their native languages like Japanese, German, French, Italian, Dutch, etc this may pose a far greater hurdle to overcome.

I think they should have waited a couple of years until they really have something to show the public.

So do you not like the idea of training Milo to understand things?  EndWar had vocal commands, was that not implemented for non english countries?  If it works for that game, which has already been released, it seems quite feasible for it to be used in this game.  This would just be a rather large extension of those methods.  In this case, a huge dictionary of terms linked together rationaly to provide the illusion of sentience.  Vocal recognition is nothing new and that seems to be the hiccup you see here.  I am not seeing it however.



Procrastinato on 07 June 2009

Milo is using a knowledge-based system to recognize words, and symbols. That's not a "hoax", its textbook AI. Nor is it revolutionary, I might add. Far from.

Honestly people are only excited about this because the vast majority of the media has ignored the accomplishments of AI research over the years, or believed it to be pie-in-the-sky and the stuff of science fiction plots. This isn't science fiction, nor is it really very interesting. KBS's were the very first form of AI. We're talking the 1950s here.



 

heruamon on 07 June 2009

Here is a link to the video...just to dispell SO many of the comments about WHAT Molyneux was saying. No comments about AI, or self thinking Machine...And neither was there a comments that Claire was interfacing with Milo for the first time. Also, others got a chance to interface with Natal at E3, and they all seemed to walk away impress...ALOT of the negative response is from people who ddin't see anything more than this video...hmmmm...let's think about that....

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-09-lionhead-milo/50016



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

ramses01 on 07 June 2009
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
Akvod said:
Squilliam said:
Akvod said:
daroamer said:
JaggedSac said:
LOL. What was deceptive about it? The voice recognition, facial recognition, etc? Did people actually think they had developed the most sophisticated AI of all time?

Exactly.  Plus, Peter himself admitted the demo was using a lot of "tricks" to be able to do what it did.  That doesn't mean it was deceptive.

But if you don't admit those tricks on the spot (E3 conference), then it is deceptive.

Magicians don't need to admit they used tricks because it's already assumed that they are. In this case, it's almost like a person doing something that seems magical, and not admitting that it was only a magic trick in the end.

Yeah,  the whole 3d graphics rendering you see in games is one big deception. I expect you to now go off on one big thread about how game artists and programmers have been deceiving you.

Your thread awaits, go to it!

 

I'm not reffering to the 3D graphics rendering (if you read my previous posts in the same thread), but how the presenters implied that Milo has emotions, and is an actual sentinent AI.

Please don't put words in my mouth, and use straw mans.

I think you decieved yourself...in thinking that "Milo" was a sentient AI...WTF...did you REALLY think Lionhead had created AI in 4 months...you're kidding me, right...please tell me you're kidding me...

I told you all, that the whole point is that the detractors never thought that the AI was sentinent in the first place, otherwise why would we be arguing agaisnt it? It's very simple logic is it not? How could we say something's not real, if we didn't think it wasn't real in the first play?

I'm simply arguing that in my humble opinion, that the people who presented Milo, at the E3 conference (not in subsequent interviews, or on the floor showcases in the rest of E3), they implied that Milo was a sentinent AI, with emotions, that could be interacted with as if it were a real living boy.

Dude...I've watched that video so many times, and I've been amazed by it, but I NEVER once got the feeling that they were trying to come across like "Milo" was sentinent.  It was just a very well written demo to display the potential of the system to receive and process inputs and relay sensible outputs...just like in dialogue radial in RPGs.  Sorry, but I didn't walk away with impression, and as you say, further more, I've seen NO reports has tried to say that M$ and Lionhead were  talking AI.

I had the feeling they were trying to come across, but that's personal opinions, and I respect your's (as I hope you respect mine). As for "well written", I think that, or as other say in a more negative tone, "scripted", itself is disengenous.

They claimed that the woman was interacting with Milo for the first time, and it didn't seem like that to me, and if you were right and it was a well written tech demo to show the potential (when in fact, they were saying, "look, this woman is interacting with Milo for the first time, unscripted, and it worked perfectly". Far from being a well written tech demo that's only showing what's possible, rather than what is) then that means that they were deceptive, as they said that the woman never interacted with Milo before.

Microsoft (why would you use M$?) and Lionheart were talking about Milo, which is the name, I thought, of the AI. Am I wrong?

Do people just completely fail at basic comprehension or what?  PM made it perfectly clear that Milo had a ton of experience interacting with the woman in the video.  In fact, he stated that Milo's vocabulary with that particular woman was up to 500 words.  That was one of the key take aways from the interviews and presentations, that Milo, and by definition, NATAL would learn each uses voice and increase the fidelity of the voice recognition.  When PM refered to the interaction as not being scripted, he meant that Milo's responses were the result of the programs actions and reactions to the woman and not a movie where the woman was playing a part.



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heruamon on 07 June 2009
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
Akvod said:
heruamon said:
ROFLMAO...sony fanboys are seething with jealousy....indeed!

I'm a Sony fanboy and I'm not jealous. I'm more creeped out about making a little boy a plaything (whether or not you're already a mother or not) than the ultra violence (and unrealistic) violence in God of War III.

It's also wierd to think about excercise games with NATAL. Won't you think it's a bit ridiculous to even need NATAL when you're asked to do free weight activities with no equipment (push ups, crunches, etc).

LOL...I'm glad that you're a siftware engineer and have figured out these serious flaws in Natal...I'm not really sure WHY a sony fanboy would be concerend about it, when you'd think sony fanboys would be worried about how to keep the ps3 from laggin even further behind Wii and 360.  If they would have used an adult man...there would have ben gripes there as well, and on and on.  It was a TECH DEMO...to show what the system can do, not some attempt to say they had created AI...WHO the heck even hinted at that by M$?  AI...WTF...are people THAT stupid!

What flaws did I talk about? I think NATAL works awesomely, and that the little hiccups (like the "Bam!" thing) can easily be resolved. I was reffering to how ridiculous some of the application of NATAL is (and in genereal, motion control) for things such as exercising. I think that with NATAL the illogical need for a motion control device and a software for popular things such as fitness games are profoundly evidident. You're essentially doing what you could have done now, instead of waiting for this orgasm of technology.

I admit being a Sony fanboy, but you're the one making assumptions and being irrational. Please, being a fanboy doesn't mean you share the same opinions/tendancies of fellow fanboys. Fanboys only mean that you're a pationet (sp?) fan of something/body.

I'm using the EA Active, and it was REALLY effective at Cardio, but I didn't get to weight training, and I'm not sure there is one...but the elastic band is effect, and it could help simulate weight lifting...jsut on a resistance level.

Were one of the HUGE advantage of Natal is ducking and cover in Shooters, and even reloading weapons.  In a game like Mass Effect, and if you've not played it or any of the KOTR games, NATAL would be perfect for non-combat NPC exhanges...absolutely perfect!  Even some as trivial as looking in your inventory...

Again, that's why I said that with NATAL (not EA Active) it's profoundly evident how ridiculous something like a NATAL fitness would be. At least with the EA Active you have physical resistence bands (although you didn't need to buy the game for it...), but with NATAL you're literally doing exercises you can do, right now, on the floor.

Again, let me emphasize that I said "Some", not all uses. I think that NATAL could be used for improved controls in RTSs (although not as good as Keyboard+Mouse). Although I don't dig your personal ideas about ducking and reloading (if you're a competitive player, I think you're more interested in the most efficient, (not immersive) controls.

PS: What do you mean, by "[my] inventory"?

Well, inventory on Mass Effect sucked, so I was somewhat thinking about that, and how it could have bee improved , had it been done uunder Natal...so it was for a specific case that annoyed my...

How did inventory worked in Mass Effect? Was it like Deus Ex, or ES: Oblivion?

It was like BAD...



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

d21lewis on 07 June 2009

I'm willing to bet that those people playing the racing game weren't really a family, either. Also that girl who called up her friend via Natal and showed her the outfit that she wanted her friend to wear -she has her eye on her friend's boyfriend! Scandalous!!



heruamon on 07 June 2009

Ramses...I've added the link to "Milo"...since alot of people are going around saying thigns that neither PM nor M$ tried to imply.  Gotta love the internet to debunk thos who would try to miscontrue the reality...that Natal works...and in a few months, Lionhead was able to come up with Milo...can you imagine Fable 4...WOW!



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

MikeB on 07 June 2009
JaggedSac said:
MikeB said:
From MTV multiplayer:

"So what was technology and what was a trick? It appeared that Milo’s ability to recognize actual words is completely AWOL at the moment. Former MTVer Stephen Totilo joined me for my meeting, and Stephen’s attempts to interact with Milo resulted in mere quaint smiles and frowns. Molyneux went on to say that players must “train Milo to their voice.” That may be, but based on this demo there’s still a lot of ground to cover."

So it appears the technology (at least at this point) is not nearly advanced enough to allow a random user to interact (for example a gaming friend). Possibly bad articulation or dialect will have an affect on the effectiveness of this technology, let alone if people want to play in their native languages like Japanese, German, French, Italian, Dutch, etc this may pose a far greater hurdle to overcome.

I think they should have waited a couple of years until they really have something to show the public.

So do you not like the idea of training Milo to understand things?  EndWar had vocal commands, was that not implemented for non english countries?  If it works for that game, which has already been released, it seems quite feasible for it to be used in this game.  This would just be a rather large extension of those methods.  In this case, a huge dictionary of terms linked together rationaly to provide the illusion of sentience.  Vocal recognition is nothing new and that seems to be the hiccup you see here.  I am not seeing it however.


No, I would not like to train a Milo. I want such a game to be fuss free and I want to be surprised. If I have to train him the commands, I rather train my cat instead.

I remember an old Dutch languaged text adventure form the early 80s which blew me away with its level of word recognition. I was a preteen boy and there was an old lady, for fun I said fuck that old lady and the game responded, he was not going to do that to such a poor old lady. That's the kind of suprise response I am looking for.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

drakesfortune on 07 June 2009

I have to agree. Natal looked terrible to me. I don't understand how so many people seem fooled by what this thing can do. They made a LOT of bold claims, but the reality is they didn't prove anything with Milo, which was displayed in a controlled way, and the ball demo shows SO MUCH lag that it'd be no fun to play. In fact, lag is going to be the thing that makes Natal useless.

I think there's absolutely no way that microsoft can deliver what they're promising with Natal. It's a souped up eyetoy, and when you really look at what they showed, with the horribly inaccurate paint demo, and the lagalicious dodge ball demo, there's no reason to think this is anything more exciting than eye toy 2.0. This looks less accurate than the wiimote 1.0 and with much more lag. Do not want.