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Forums - General - Despite the claims of some here Poor people are the most Charitable!

Kasz216 on 28 May 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.



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Avinash_Tyagi on 28 May 2009
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Kasz216 on 28 May 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on

That's really ignoring a number of issues and a poor arguement to make.  Also it's a cop out.

There is nothing hamstringing Welfare... it just doesn't work.  



Avinash_Tyagi on 28 May 2009
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on

That's really ignoring a number of issues and a poor arguement to make.  Also it's a cop out.

There is nothing hamstringing Welfare... it just doesn't work.

No, actually it does, welfare has been shown to reduce poverty levels, poverty levels are lower in much of europe, and also its not a bad argument nor a cop-out to point to nations that gets government action right, it just shows that the US should emulate systems that work and not its wishy-washy attempts.

 

What is a cop-out and a bad argument is just to say that wlfare doesn't work and government action doesn't work just because the US can't get it right, plenty of nations do a better job at it than the US, so that just shows something is wrong with US's attempts and we should look at thethose that have more success



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

deathgod33 on 28 May 2009

they dont show how much they donate so for all we know the poor people could just be donating pennys



 

 

 

 

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Kasz216 on 28 May 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on

That's really ignoring a number of issues and a poor arguement to make.  Also it's a cop out.

There is nothing hamstringing Welfare... it just doesn't work.

No, actually it does, welfare has been shown to reduce poverty levels, poverty levels are lower in much of europe, and also its not a bad argument nor a cop-out to point to nations that gets government action right, it just shows that the US should emulate systems that work and not its wishy-washy attempts.

 

What is a cop-out and a bad argument is just to say that wlfare doesn't work and government action doesn't work just because the US can't get it right, plenty of nations do a better job at it than the US, so that just shows something is wrong with US's attempts and we should look at thethose that have more success

Welfare as in US welfare.  It's doesn't work because the Europeon model won't work on the US. 

For example Denmark has a really good welfare system.

It's about 100 times better then anywhere else in europe.  The rest of Europe has tried to copy Denmark which has actually has US like unemployment numbers and Growth numbers.

It isn't applicable outside of denmark however because of cultural differences and overall size differences.  A system where 30% of the workforce changes jobs each year just wouldn't work in most of Europe.

Additionally Europeon Welfare wouldn't work in the much larger, more complex America where things are culturally different.

American Welfare needs to be done correctly, and until we can come up with a system that will work we are better off without welfare.  Because once a system is in place... it's nearly impossible to reform it.  No matter how much sense it makes to reform it... until they find dead bodies lieing around. 

For example Healthcare in VA hospitals.  It's some of the best in the USA now... and most cost effective.  For decades it was one of the worst.  This only changed when there was a giant scandle where... dead bodies were found... that were unidentified and just... sitting there.  Nobody knew the people died.

 



Avinash_Tyagi on 28 May 2009
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on

That's really ignoring a number of issues and a poor arguement to make.  Also it's a cop out.

There is nothing hamstringing Welfare... it just doesn't work.

No, actually it does, welfare has been shown to reduce poverty levels, poverty levels are lower in much of europe, and also its not a bad argument nor a cop-out to point to nations that gets government action right, it just shows that the US should emulate systems that work and not its wishy-washy attempts.

 

What is a cop-out and a bad argument is just to say that wlfare doesn't work and government action doesn't work just because the US can't get it right, plenty of nations do a better job at it than the US, so that just shows something is wrong with US's attempts and we should look at thethose that have more success

Welfare as in US welfare.  It's doesn't work because the Europeon model won't work on the US.

For example Denmark has a really good welfare system.

It's about 100 times better then anywhere else in europe.  The rest of Europe has tried to copy Denmark which has actually has US like unemployment numbers and Growth numbers.

It isn't applicable outside of denmark however because of cultural differences and overall size differences.  A system where 30% of the workforce changes jobs each year just wouldn't work in most of Europe.

Additionally Europeon Welfare wouldn't work in the much larger, more complex America where things are culturally different.

American Welfare needs to be done correctly, and until we can come up with a system that will work we are better off without welfare.  Because once a system is in place... it's nearly impossible to reform it.  No matter how much sense it makes to reform it... until they find dead bodies lieing around.

For example Healthcare in VA hospitals.  It's some of the best in the USA now... and most cost effective.  For decades it was one of the worst.  This only changed when there was a giant scandle where... dead bodies were found... that were unidentified and just... sitting there.  Nobody knew the people died.

 

 

Originally your argument was that Welfare wouldn't work, which is false as you have admitted, in addition your argument that the system in Europe wouldn't work in the larger US, is also  false as the EU is nearly 500 million people while the US is around 300 million, and while not all of europe is equal in terms of their welfare outcomes, pretty much all of it, except the less developed eastern nations, are better off than the US in terms of outcome and costs.

Now where I do agree with you, is that the system in the US has to be well thought out and planned, to be truly effective, which is why I believe that the right wing should be locked out of any such discussion.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Kasz216 on 28 May 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:

Additionally conservatives are more charitable then liberals.

Your more likely to get a handout from Dick Cheney then Al Gore.

Which is another ammusingly statistical fact... but one you won't like.

The more conservative, religious and poor you are... the more likely you are to give a higher percentage of your money to charity.

Next time someone says conservatives don't care about charity... keep in mind they donate a higher percentage of their money then Liberals.


So really the issue is the same.  As the political system moves left... people will become more liberal, and will donate less to charity.  Will the governemt wellfare replace the effectiveness of charity?

Hard to say.  Unless run well... of which there is no well run proposal yet.  It's likely to cost more and have just as many if not more holes.

 

 

except the states where the poor conservatives live, take more federal money from the taxes of those states where the greedy stingy rich liberals live

So... lower socialism like they want and there is no problem?

The biggest issue i tend to have is with people who champion the poor yet do jack to help them and fly around on jets drinking 200 dollars bottles of champaign.

If you think your tax rate should be 5% higher why aren't you donating that 5% to charity?

because I think government can do a better job than charity, however i'm perfectly fine with letting the red states rot if that's what they want

That seems to go against common facts so far... but ok.

I mean... escpiecally the US government.  What's the last program the US government has done well in regards to social programs?  I know i can't find any in Ohio.

That's because US programs are usually hamstrung by the right, look at healthcare, other nations in Europe, canada and Japan have some form of universal healthcare and they pay less and have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality, and so on

That's really ignoring a number of issues and a poor arguement to make.  Also it's a cop out.

There is nothing hamstringing Welfare... it just doesn't work.

No, actually it does, welfare has been shown to reduce poverty levels, poverty levels are lower in much of europe, and also its not a bad argument nor a cop-out to point to nations that gets government action right, it just shows that the US should emulate systems that work and not its wishy-washy attempts.

 

What is a cop-out and a bad argument is just to say that wlfare doesn't work and government action doesn't work just because the US can't get it right, plenty of nations do a better job at it than the US, so that just shows something is wrong with US's attempts and we should look at thethose that have more success

Welfare as in US welfare.  It's doesn't work because the Europeon model won't work on the US.

For example Denmark has a really good welfare system.

It's about 100 times better then anywhere else in europe.  The rest of Europe has tried to copy Denmark which has actually has US like unemployment numbers and Growth numbers.

It isn't applicable outside of denmark however because of cultural differences and overall size differences.  A system where 30% of the workforce changes jobs each year just wouldn't work in most of Europe.

Additionally Europeon Welfare wouldn't work in the much larger, more complex America where things are culturally different.

American Welfare needs to be done correctly, and until we can come up with a system that will work we are better off without welfare.  Because once a system is in place... it's nearly impossible to reform it.  No matter how much sense it makes to reform it... until they find dead bodies lieing around.

For example Healthcare in VA hospitals.  It's some of the best in the USA now... and most cost effective.  For decades it was one of the worst.  This only changed when there was a giant scandle where... dead bodies were found... that were unidentified and just... sitting there.  Nobody knew the people died.

 

 

Originally your argument was that Welfare wouldn't work, which is false as you have admitted, in addition your argument that the system in Europe wouldn't work in the larger US, is also  false as the EU is nearly 500 million people while the US is around 300 million, and while not all of europe is equal in terms of their welfare outcomes, pretty much all of it, except the less developed eastern nations, are better off than the US in terms of outcome and costs.

Now where I do agree with you, is that the system in the US has to be well thought out and planned, to be truly effective, which is why I believe that the right wing should be locked out of any such discussion.

The EU isn't one country nor is Welfare uniform within the EU.  US welfare would need to be uniform.

US welfare is not Uniform now... and it doesn't work.  At all.... it just sucks.

And it's worst in the most liberal states.  New York for example has the worst Welfare in the country.

Medicaid is an absolute disaster in NY for example.



Avinash_Tyagi on 28 May 2009

I agree that the current US system sucks and that an effective uniform system in the US would need to be well thought out and implemented. On this there is no disagreement, I only disagreed with your initial points that charity can do a better job than the government, and that welfare doesn't work, those two arguments are false. As a result the question should be how to implement an effective system in the US.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Kasz216 on 28 May 2009

Oh... and a fun one as it relates to this... the most charitable states.

http://www.catalogueforphilanthropy.org/cfp/db/generosity.php?year=2004&orderby=generosity_index

Which ends up with this....

 

Maybe these people are doing something invalid though.   I can't find it though.