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Forums - General - Welfare and the work ethic.

SamuelRSmith on 27 May 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Luney Tune said:
TheRealMafoo said:

In the US, regardless of race, sex, or economic background, you can be anything, work any job, go to any school... What you were when you were born, has no barring on who you can become.  Our president should be a good example of that.

This is even more true in the rest of the developed world. It's *easier* to become whatever you want in a welfare state. The drawback is that the "reward" is marginally smaller. I prefer that. You don't.

Now stop lying about the work ethic in welfare states.

Cool, so if I work hard enough in the UK, I can become King? Cool. I didn't know that.

No, but you could become PM, which would give you far more power.



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HappySqurriel on 27 May 2009
Luney Tune said:

You sound like Milton Friedman. The obvious problem is that there's a *lot* we can do to improve the economy that we aren't doing, simply because doing so will massively increase suffering in society. We can legalize slavery. We can legalize child labour. We can kill everyone above the age of 60. But would that give us a "better" system ?

"I have yet to see any statistics that demonstrate that over a reasonable period of time (20+ years) a welfare state can produce faster economic growth, unless the welfare state began at a much lower economic level."

Norway ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Besides, the US is extremely rich in natural resources compared to most other developed countries. This obviously gives the US an edge. Then there's the advantages of being the biggest country in the developed world, which is the main reason for the US dollar's dominant position in the world economy. You shouldn't be so quick to assume libertarian ideas are the primary reasons for the US success. Milton Friedman and his "Chicago Boys" were given more or less free reign in fascist Chile from 73-90, and contrary to popular libertarian myths, it did little for the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_per_capita_LA-Chile.png


My first quote is used out of context ...

When you are dealing with trying to find the optimal balance between all factors to ensure that everyone is motivated to put in the hard work to build the economy for the betterment of society, a better balance will always result in a higher and faster growing GDP per capita. To understand why slavery would never be an optimal solution all you have to do is to list the number of great inventors throughout history who were slaves. The reason why there aren’t many is not (necessarily) because of lack of intelligence, education, or for not seeing needs within society; the reason they didn’t invent anything is because the reward for doing the work (nothing) was not work the effort that was required.

 

On the second quote of mine you choose Norway as your example and your very first comment is "Besides, the US is extremely rich in natural resources compared to most other developed countries" ... Were you aware that Norway is #10 in the world for oil reserves per capita? The United States is #33 for comparison ...

This isn't to say that Norway didn't earn its success, but part of the reason why I specifically said that the statistics had to be gathered over a reasonable period of time (20+ years) was to prevent people from cherry picking data. Many countries (including Canada, where I live) were benefiting from a massive boom in 2007 and 2008 in the price of commodities, and resource rich Norway was one of them. How well was Norway fairing in the early 90s when resource prices were not that great?

 

By the way ... Chile is not a particularly good example because it was primarily seen as an "unstable" state by most investors because it was a Fascist country; very few people were willing to invest in Chile which was one of the main factors which hampered growth. At the same time, many of Milton Friedman's theories have been demonstrated to be correct in China, being that personal freedoms have been growing along side economic freedoms primarily because economic growth requires personal freedom. Certainly, it may be 100 years before you can consider China to be a "Free" country, and it may never be as free as most western countries, but there has been a lot of growth in personal freedom in China over the past 20 years because of the need for more economic freedom.

 



Kasz216 on 27 May 2009

Benjamin Bradly was a slave inventor.

Great story actually. Used the little money he was aloud to keep to invent a big steam engine and he bought his freedom.

As i recall there were a few slave inventors... often to make their harsh conditions less harsh... but occasionally other reasons.

Some inventors and scientists love their work so much they actually would do it for free.  There is just also a lot of really smart people who don't love what they do... but do it because they're great at it and know it pays.