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Forums - General - Welfare and the work ethic.

Luney Tune said:
TheRealMafoo said:

I would prefer a harder clime to the top, with more reward. The key is not if it's hard or not, but if the government is stopping you from getting there.

No country in the world stops you less then the US. Who gives a shit if it's hard.

That's fair. I'm not going to argue against that, except to say that I have absolutely no interest in living in your dream society. Nor do I understand why anyone would want more "reward" than they need in order to be happy. If you already have a 10 million dollar bank account, then I seriously doubt another 10 million dollars is going to make any difference to your happiness. But you may of course be a special case.

Anyway you're wrong about "No country in the world stops you less then the US". There's plenty of countries in the third world where the income gap between the rich and the poor is even larger than the US. And there's plenty of countries around the world with a lower income tax.

May I suggest you move to Mexico. I think you'd be a lot happier there (assuming you don't already live there).

Income gap != Less government restrictions.

In the US, regardless of race, sex, or economic background, you can be anything, work any job, go to any school... What you were when you were born, has no barring on who you can become.  Our president should be a good example of that.

This is not true in Mexico, or anywhere else in the world. Especially third world countries.

As for someone wanting more money after making the first 10 million... If they want to, so be it. I feel sorry for them though. A life where you spend the rest of it spending the first 10 million, is probably more fulfilling then earning 200 million more. But hey, it's there life, and if they want to screw it up, who am I to stop them?



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TheRealMafoo said:

People in the US, thanks to little government, used to work a lot harder then the rest of the world, and it showed. Now we don't, and it shows.

That's a lie and you know it.

Unless you're refering to child labour which was common in the US back when it was a libertarian society.
http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html

 

"A return to 'free' competition, means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the state." - George Orwell



I agree that in many, if not most cases it's lazyness. In some though, like my mom, it's special cases. She has physical and mental issues (sorry it's personal and I'm not going to get into details) and she tried for many years to get a job, anything, she even got help but nothing worked. No one wants to hire her and she has many limitations, poor education...

Even the work center told her they couldn't do anything more for her anymore. She receives money for incapacity. =/

There isn't anything for her here... But anyway, I agree that with people with no issues, they shouldnt allow them to stay like this. They would need to create some work program so that even if theyre on welfare, they would work to "gain" that money.



TheRealMafoo said:

In the US, regardless of race, sex, or economic background, you can be anything, work any job, go to any school... What you were when you were born, has no barring on who you can become.  Our president should be a good example of that.

This is even more true in the rest of the developed world. It's *easier* to become whatever you want in a welfare state. The drawback is that the "reward" is marginally smaller. I prefer that. You don't.

Now stop lying about the work ethic in welfare states.



Luney Tune said:
TheRealMafoo said:

In the US, regardless of race, sex, or economic background, you can be anything, work any job, go to any school... What you were when you were born, has no barring on who you can become.  Our president should be a good example of that.

This is even more true in the rest of the developed world. It's *easier* to become whatever you want in a welfare state. The drawback is that the "reward" is marginally smaller. I prefer that. You don't.

Now stop lying about the work ethic in welfare states.

Cool, so if I work hard enough in the UK, I can become King? Cool. I didn't know that.



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coolestguyever said:
There should be no welfare in Canada or the US. There should be worker's comp for legitimate workplace injuries where you can not work for a period of time. But no welfare, all that does is give lazy people money for not having the effort to go out and get a job.

I was watching a random People's Court case a few days ago and there was a lady on there with her husband and she had filed at least 8 workers comp cases in the last year alone.

So what did she do for a living?  Contruction worker?  Lion tamer?  Fluffer?

No-- she was a janitor at a high school.

She made more than $80,000 in the last year because of her "injuries" and it was just disgusting.  Her husband (a black guy) seemed just as bad too.  He had several workers comp cases and he was suing his previous work for racial descrimination.  Apparently, accoring to him coworkers had left nooses on his desk and his boss wore a white hood around him...

I really didn't believe the guy.

Anyways, the lady's case was her suing her lawyer (!) because she felt the lawyer didn't get her the money quick enough.  The lady tried to tell the judge some sob story about her house being foreclosed on but the judge pretty much laughed her out of the courtroom because she had just received $30,000 something dollars and they had just gone on a cruise.

Anyways, it's people like her is why the country is in trouble and she can burn for all I care.



TheRealMafoo said:

Cool, so if I work hard enough in the UK, I can become King? Cool. I didn't know that.

The queen is just a symbol, kinda like the statue of liberty.

Anyway I don't really have a problem with successful people becoming extremely rich, because the more money a rich man earns, the more jobs he will typically create. And studies have shown that the government is fairly inefficient at job creation, as politicians face too much pressure from voters to not shut down factories that become unprofitable over time, which ends up hurting the economy.

I'm more concerned with the income gap between the middle class and the poor, because I see no economical justification for a huge gap between these groups.



Luney Tune said:
TheRealMafoo said:

Cool, so if I work hard enough in the UK, I can become King? Cool. I didn't know that.

The queen is just a symbol, kinda like the statue of liberty.

Anyway I don't really have a problem with successful people becoming extremely rich, because the more money a rich man earns, the more jobs he will typically create. And studies have shown that the government is fairly inefficient at job creation, as politicians face too much pressure from voters to not shut down factories that become unprofitable over time, which ends up hurting the economy.

I'm more concerned with the income gap between the middle class and the poor, because I see no economical justification for a huge gap between these groups.

Well, one reason, is why work for a dollar or two an hour?

If you can not work, and make equivalent to $6 an hour, why work for $8?

Right now, in this country, if you are poor, you can go to college for free. If the poor were mostly college graduates, who did everything they could to get ahead in life, but still only make $8-$10 an hour, then I would agree with you.

They aren't. Aside from handicapped people, the poor are poor because they have done very little to make them anything else.



Luney -

What about the unemployment rate in Welfare states. It's quite a bit different to have welfare, and have much unemployment vs. less welfare, and less unemployment, no?

Also, when your trying to say that things are better off in welfare states, I'd love to see some statistical evidence that proves that. Not just the whole 'Well, Denmark has lots of welfare, and it does well, so welfare states must work!' but an analysis of the actual people on welfare in such states, and compare it that way.

Otherwise, your just analyzing your ideology, and not providing a real analysis. Kind of like when people say more guns cause more crime. Actual statistics prove to the contrary.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Luney -

What about the unemployment rate in Welfare states. It's quite a bit different to have welfare, and have much unemployment vs. less welfare, and less unemployment, no?

Also, when your trying to say that things are better off in welfare states, I'd love to see some statistical evidence that proves that. Not just the whole 'Well, Denmark has lots of welfare, and it does well, so welfare states must work!' but an analysis of the actual people on welfare in such states, and compare it that way.

Otherwise, your just analyzing your ideology, and not providing a real analysis. Kind of like when people say more guns cause more crime. Actual statistics prove to the contrary.

Denmark is actually doing Ok in all that.  The only problem is that Denmark is an outlier... who's model is unlikely to be able to be exported to other countries.

Denmark's tends to work so well because they aren't as socialistic as other europeon countries and have many US and UK labor practices.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2007-03-06-denmark-usat_N.htm


Basically 30% of Danish workers change jobs within a year. 

Some info from the chart.  At the time US unemployment was 4.6%.  Denmarks was 4.2%, France's was 9.1%