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Forums - General - Looks like GM will file bankruptcy.

Since we're on the topic of the bailout, I saw this article this morning and think it is appropriate ...

http://www.americanissuesproject.org/blogs/columns/archive/2009/05/14/was-the-stimulus-irrelevant.aspx

Was the Stimulus Irrelevant?

In early January, a joint paper [PDF file] by Dr. Christine Romer, then the nominee to chair the Presidential Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein from Joe Biden's advisory team painted a bleak view of a world without the off-budget stimulus plan. This paper drove the administration's agenda on the stimulus bill and helped formulate the calculus that gave a much higher priority to public-works projects as opposed to tax cuts and business incentives. Failure to act, Romer and Bernstein warned, could have dire consequences (page 5):

The U.S. economy has already lost nearly 2.6 million jobs since the business cycle peak in December 2007. In the absence of stimulus, the economy could lose another 3 to 4 million more. Thus, we are working to counter a potential total job loss of at least 5 million. As Figure 1 shows, even with the large prototypical package, the unemployment rate in 2010Q4 is predicted to be approximately 7.0 percent, which is well below the approximately 8.8 percent that would result in the absence of a plan.

Sounds dire, doesn't it? Unemployment could hit 8.8 percent if Congress didn't start throwing money away immediately, and five million jobs could disappear. In fact, Figure 1 details the challenge better than the text does:

In February, the Obama administration demanded immediate action on the economy from Congress. Nancy Pelosi took charge of building a stimulus bill that wound up spending $787 billion dollars and shoving it through an offended House Republican caucus, while Harry Reid convinced three GOP Senators that the country would tumble into an economic abyss without it. The final bill passed in mid-February, intended to stave off the doomsday scenarios spun by Barack Obama's team of economic advisers.

After the passage of the bill authorizing the off-budget spending of almost $800 billion, one might have thought that the crisis represented by the light-blue arc would be avoided. Guess again. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that unemployment in April had risen to a peak of 8.9 percent, more than the doomsday scenario laid out by Romer and Bernstein in their January paper. In fact, March had exceeded the recovery-plan curve and the non-recovery plan curve, too, as this revised graph clearly shows:

This could have been worse, of course. The unemployment figures showed a net job loss of 539,000 in April, better than the adjusted loss in March of almost 700,000 jobs. However, many media outlets missed the fact that 611,000 private-sector jobs got lost in April. Massive government hiring lowered the overall figure, but 66,000 of the 72,000 new government hires came with the Census Bureau – temporary jobs for next year's decennial survey.

Not only did the stimulus plan not work, the unemployment actually rose faster with the “recovery plan” in place than the Obama administration predicted unemployment would rise without it.

Obama backers would say that the administration always predicted more job growth in the second and third year of the plan. Indeed, on page 8, the authors wrote:

The different components of the stimulus package also differ in terms of the timing of the jobs they will create, and therefore serve different purposes in terms of cushioning the downturn and fostering recovery. Because it takes time to carry out new spending programs authorized by legislation, we expect the jobs created by spending on infrastructure, education, health, and energy to be concentrated in 2010 and 2011. At the other extreme are funds to protect the most vulnerable, which are generally spent promptly, and tax incentives for businesses to invest quickly. State fiscal relief and broad-based tax cuts fall in between: funds for these programs can be disbursed quickly, but there can be a delay before the main response of spending.

Return, though, to the graph created by Romer and Bernstein. They clearly predicted that the main explosion of unemployment would come this year, tapering off into 2010 and going lower in 2011 whether or not the stimulus bill passed. The issue has been how high would unemployment initially get before a recovery would start creating jobs, and how fast would jobs get created. The graph shows that their primary purpose in pushing the stimulus was to keep unemployment from peaking above eight percent.

We spent almost $800 billion to keep that bubble low, and the stimulus failed completely at its task.

Note that in the graph, the two lines meet in 2014, meaning that the American economy would have recovered with or without the stimulus plan and that unemployment would return to five percent. Unfortunately, having spent the $787 billion, we have massive debt to repay when those lines meet, debt that we incurred in a failed policy of irresponsible spending when we should have been encouraging capital investment in private enterprise, the real engine of job creation. Even if we do return to 95 percent employment, each worker will carry the burden of debt from Romer, Bernstein, and Obama – a burden that paid no dividends but will encumber us for generations.

We only wish that the stimulus bill was as irrelevant as it was useless.



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So...the economy was actually worse off than the Obama administration predicted. To me, that sounds like the need for a stimulus was even greater than people thought. There is no reason that these job loss numbers could not have continued to accelerate upwards of 12-15% given the right circumstances (like a collapse of the financial sector). The actual data is more suggestive of that kind of effect with an overall much deeper arc of unemployment.

Economics is not an exact science. The writer of the article presumes that simply because the Obama adminstration lowballed how bad unemployment actually would get that they are somehow at fault (and that all the other predictions they made were correct). He holds the fact that the economy actually turned out to be worse than the Obama administration expected against them. That doesn't really make any sense to me. He then turns around and assumes that all the other predictions the administration made were correct. How about if he ADJUSTED the curve for the ACTUAL numbers.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Sucks for them.



TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
MO' LIKE COMMUNIST MOTORS!

It just bothers me when I see people dancing on graves. [edit: mostly NOT aimed at OP]

@ mrstickball: That would be completely hilarious -- GM not making cars in the US, that's a mindblowing idea.

 

I am not dancing on graves. I realized they were dead 10 months ago. I have been pissed that they were not allowed to restructure and turn a corner back then. To allow a dead company to linger for months is cruel, and in no way helpful.

If my memory serves me - they died a long time ago at least 15 years ago. Mafoo - what did you think of the airline bailouts after 9/11?

 



akuma587 said:

So...the economy was actually worse off than the Obama administration predicted. To me, that sounds like the need for a stimulus was even greater than people thought. There is no reason that these job loss numbers could not have continued to accelerate upwards of 12-15% given the right circumstances (like a collapse of the financial sector). The actual data is more suggestive of that kind of effect with an overall much deeper arc of unemployment.

Economics is not an exact science. The writer of the article presumes that simply because the Obama adminstration lowballed how bad unemployment actually would get that they are somehow at fault (and that all the other predictions they made were correct). He holds the fact that the economy actually turned out to be worse than the Obama administration expected against them. That doesn't really make any sense to me. He then turns around and assumes that all the other predictions the administration made were correct. How about if he ADJUSTED the curve for the ACTUAL numbers.

 

Here is a simple question for you, is there any evidence that the stimulus package worked or any way to measure the impact the stimulus package had on the economy? Is there any way to conclusively say that the economy was worse off than these economists expected, or that we would have been in a worse position without a stimulus package?

For thousands of years we have had Doctors of some form, and people would come to these Doctors in a moment of crisis and beg them to do something because "We can’t afford to do nothing" ... An interesting thing about this is that until very recently (past 100 years or so) a Doctor was far more likely to make your condition worse from their action than doing nothing would have. In a moment of crisis there is always a bias towards action, and without the education and experience teaching you to do the smallest and most focused actions possible to alleviate the crisis you’re probably going to do more harm than good.

Sadly enough, economists are generally over-educated, under-experienced, academics who have made a career out of creating theories and testing them on computer models that were built based on their theories. In the moment of crisis they are like a doctor with a patient who came in with a black-eye and a nasty cut on their head and the doctor immediately proposes brain surgery because there was the possibility that there is massive bleeding in the brain ... Unfortunately, in the case of an economist, when people follow this advice and something bad happens there is no malpractice lawsuits and people will even automatically assume that things would have been worse without taking the foolish action.

 

 



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@HappySquirrel. Same question works in reverse too.

If there was no stimulus package we could be in exactly the same position as we are now or we could be back in the 1930's, we will never know.



This makes me really sad, closing down thousands of dealsers, tons of people losing jobs....




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jv103 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
MO' LIKE COMMUNIST MOTORS!

It just bothers me when I see people dancing on graves. [edit: mostly NOT aimed at OP]

@ mrstickball: That would be completely hilarious -- GM not making cars in the US, that's a mindblowing idea.

 

I am not dancing on graves. I realized they were dead 10 months ago. I have been pissed that they were not allowed to restructure and turn a corner back then. To allow a dead company to linger for months is cruel, and in no way helpful.

If my memory serves me - they died a long time ago at least 15 years ago. Mafoo - what did you think of the airline bailouts after 9/11?

 

 

That case is a little different. The government forced a lot of change onto the airlines, and thus business was effected. It would be like asking me if I would be for an auto industry bailout if one day the government told all automakers that they had to make only electric cars. In that case, yes.

If after 911, the government did nothing to the airline industry, and business was just bad because people were afraid to fly, I would not have been for a bailout.