Final-Fan said:
Okay...
Why do you say that "experiencing" is different from "interpreting in a very complex way"? Never mind, this question is answered (I believe) in a previous post you made: "And when I say Cause & effect, I mostly mean Action reaction. If we were to make the same assumptions 'academic' scientists do, then basically everything works via action reaction. There is no 'choice', because you are programmed(through evolution, ie dna, genes, etc) to act, process information, and react, and that's it, no free will. Going from Action-reaction mechanics to free will is impossible the way we understand things now. Conciousness/free will Can be beneficial to the being, but true free will can't spawn via evolution, if you understand the science taught." (Since the difference was "it's experiencing if a consciousness does it" as far as I could tell.)
But I do wish to address the statements in that previous post. I think an assumption I think you made -- that action-reaction necessarily always has a 1:1 relationship with what happens under the scientific view -- is incorrect. A lot of things happen at very microscopic levels, and random chance can play a part. If time could somehow rewind 50 million years, I don't think we'd be having this conversation because some things that literally had an equal chance of going one way or another (due to true randomness and not just unknown factors) would go the other way.
Also, why can't a causal system create consciousness? This appears to me to be nothing more than an assumption you have made. Assuming that consciousness (as separate from a complex system of action-reaction behaviors) exists in the first place, why can't evolution (as an action-reaction system of development of species through generations) create it? Unless you deny that consciousness originates in our physical bodies, why is it completely impossible that genetic mutations could "press the magic button" to make our physical brains create consciousness?
@ your new post: "For the free will & experience part, because It seems too complex to try and explain feelings when we don't experience the same things.. or did I change my position on something else?"
This makes little sense to me. Are you saying that your evidence that you have free will is a feeling that you have free will? Or that your evidence is that you have feelings? Or something else entirely?
And what I was referring to in changing your position was "Not unprovable, but subjectively provable." "I didnt mean it was necessarily proven for me. I don't believe one specific answer. But It seems like a strong possibility because of evidence I can't present since it's subjective..." If it can't be proven to other people, and you haven't proven it to yourself, then either your first statement was only a statement of opinion (not a claim that it was necessarily actually provable, since you'd have to have proven it to substantiate that claim), or you have changed your position.
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Good arguments, but I gotta go to bed so Ill just try and say a few things.
not sure what you mean by 1:1. I am aware of that 'randomness' and in scientific terms it'd be put in quantum physics. Quantum physics are not considered into the Theory of Evolution.
"Also, why can't a causal system create consciousness?"
Whether it originates in the body or not is irrelevent with what I'm saying...
You have to understand what causal processes can and cannot produce first.. and that's rather hard to pinpoint, so I'm not sure what to say... but I do know the kind that's assumed in evolution cannot produce concsiousness, because when you're talking causal, it's essentially like programming AI, and if you understand how computers interpret data, you know it's impossible for the computer or AI to ever be able to experience, no matter how much or what kind of programming or code is set up.
I don't know where my conciousness comes from, but I do know it's not purely causal, and so evolution either doesn't take into account such a thing, or evolution is not purely causal (which is not like how the Theory of evolution and many academic scientists assume it)
I'm not sure on what point I'd have to explain at this point, it does become harder and harder to detail many things ( which in part is due to my lack of either vocabulary or expertise, so if you want to consider not enough detailed statements invalid, then that's fine I guess)
@Manus
"God doesn't exist, and I say that with the same knowledge as when I say that the invisible dragon and monster from Mars do not exist. Religion was made up by man to explain his surroundings. Today, we no longer need a sky god explain rain or a river god to explain flooding or a sun god to explain the motion of the sun. Unfortunately, these ideas are still with us and influence the decisions of otherwise rational people."
Replace 'knowledge' with 'opinion'. Do you even understand the words you're using? Don't you understand basic logic?
Consider these statements:
"God doesn't exist" - Illogical (no certainty)
"God does exist" - Illogical (not certainty)
"There is a possibility that god exist" - Logical (it is possible as long as it hasn't been proven impossible)
"There is a possibility that god doesn't exist" - Logical (Same as above)