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Forums - General - If I were a Palestinian...

Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

1) My family lives with it.  They go on and ignore that they were cheated out of their land and wealth.   They aren't going against the lawyers family on their own accord wirth weapons.

2) Israel didn't take their land.  All the Zionist movement did was lobby for Israel. 

1)  You were obviosly wronged.  But what if you had the chance for justice, say a lawyer or judge came to you and said they could get your land back in court.  Wouldnt you take it?  Of course.

2)  So your argument is that Israel should not have any blame since they had somebody else help them and do it for them.  So if I convince my girlfriend to kill my ex-girlfriend, I'm not responisble for anything?  I can just say, yeah I gave her a gun and drove her to her house, but I had somebody else do it so I'm of the hook?

1))  Wouldn't my great great grandkids take our land back in court as well?   Furthermore... that court woudl be the UN.  The correct path would of been to take back what they could of got back.  Like my family would of.  Then lobbied from there.

Not send my families children to the lawyers school to bully his kids until we get the land back and refuse to get back any part we legally unless we get it all back.

2)  Israel didn't convince them to "kill" anybody.  They were going to "kill" somebody anyway.  It being Palestine rather then Ethopia is immatieral.

1)  No, your great grandkids would have no concern (or perhaps even knowledge) of the past wrong.  I'm sure my ancestors were wronged countless times throughout history, and I can think of cases of relatives being wronged, but as time passes the concern and reason to change things dwindles.

2) So if a gang member comes to you and says he is going to rob house A or house B, he just haven't decided which one yet, you can help them with his decision and help him rob the house with no blame?



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ManusJustus said:
I'll quickly disprove the notion that 'might makes right' which is what some of you are arguing.

Right is not dependent on might, but those with might do have the option to do what is right or what is wrong. If we are in an argument and I say that the Earth is flat, just because I'm stronger than you doesnt make the Earth flat.

 

 I suppose I'll have to just as quickly return the favor.

"Might makes right" is a social construct, not a scientific one.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tyrannical said:
ManusJustus said:
I'll quickly disprove the notion that 'might makes right' which is what some of you are arguing.

Right is not dependent on might, but those with might do have the option to do what is right or what is wrong. If we are in an argument and I say that the Earth is flat, just because I'm stronger than you doesnt make the Earth flat.

 I suppose I'll have to just as quickly return the favor.

"Might makes right" is a social construct, not a scientific one.

And the same argument applies.

We create our own social rules, and even though social rules are changeable, they change slowly if at all.  Rape has been a social wrong for thousands of years now, so lets use your logic and say that a strong man forcefully rapes a weak woman.  In your argument the rapist would be right because 'might makes right' but in reality that is still a wrong.



I never said "might is right," or even anything close. I know it's easy to misquote people in political arguments because everyone is out to shove their biases around before being civil, but that's still not what I said. What I was saying was that even though it may or may not be right that Israel is in the tract of land it is, there is nothing anyone can do about it. The most powerful country in the world (the U.S) supports Israel. Tough fargin' luck.

The only reason the borders are what they are today is because someone fought for them. Some people defended their existing borders, while others expanded theirs. Like I said before, the only thing that has ever decided the borders of the holy land is who was the most powerful. It's not any different today. I'm not arguing what's right, I'm arguing what's true.



 

 

ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

1) My family lives with it.  They go on and ignore that they were cheated out of their land and wealth.   They aren't going against the lawyers family on their own accord wirth weapons.

2) Israel didn't take their land.  All the Zionist movement did was lobby for Israel. 

1)  You were obviosly wronged.  But what if you had the chance for justice, say a lawyer or judge came to you and said they could get your land back in court.  Wouldnt you take it?  Of course.

2)  So your argument is that Israel should not have any blame since they had somebody else help them and do it for them.  So if I convince my girlfriend to kill my ex-girlfriend, I'm not responisble for anything?  I can just say, yeah I gave her a gun and drove her to her house, but I had somebody else do it so I'm of the hook?

1))  Wouldn't my great great grandkids take our land back in court as well?   Furthermore... that court woudl be the UN.  The correct path would of been to take back what they could of got back.  Like my family would of.  Then lobbied from there.

Not send my families children to the lawyers school to bully his kids until we get the land back and refuse to get back any part we legally unless we get it all back.

2)  Israel didn't convince them to "kill" anybody.  They were going to "kill" somebody anyway.  It being Palestine rather then Ethopia is immatieral.

1)  No, your great grandkids would have no concern (or perhaps even knowledge) of the past wrong.  I'm sure my ancestors were wronged countless times throughout history, and I can think of cases of relatives being wronged, but as time passes the concern and reason to change things dwindles.

2) So if a gang member comes to you and says he is going to rob house A or house B, he just haven't decided which one yet, you can help them with his decision and help him rob the house with no blame?

How did they help?  They were told they were going to be put somewhere and they had the choice of

A) Random house that is off somewhere they've never heard of before.

B) Their ancesterial house that they once lived in that they were forced to leave due to shady dwellings.

Also, i disagree that my great grandkids won't know that... as my family believes in teaching about their families.  The only reason they won't know is they won't exist because i don't want kids.

You don't think Native Americans know about past wrongs or that it doesn't GREATLY effect their life today?  Do you know how messed up Native American culture still is do to the way the US screwed them?

 



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Kasz216 said:

1) If I saw you with my car I would report it to the authorties.  In the case of Palestine case the UN.  If I couldn't give it back I would move on.

In fact I can actually do you one better.

My great grandmother wasn't a rich woman.  But she owned a lot of land.  She had a lawyer right up a will.  Said lawyer convinced her that to save her kids, grand kids and great grand kids some trouble by making him executor of her will.  They were friends you see.  She babysat his kids so she trusted him.

She wrote of the will and gave him control.  When she died,  the lawyer refused to split up everything to the family as it was since "It wasn't perfectly even, therefore the land had to be kept until sold."  The lawfirm refused to sell it.  My family agreed to a number of things among themselves even agreeing to "sell" there shares to all one person in the family.

The lawyers still wouldn't budge.  And they slowley took fees from the estates value until the lawyer owned it.   They then turned that land around and sold it for millions because it was on valuable land.   My family had a chance of being rich, which would of been a big thing for my family since none of my relatives have been to college outside of myself... and possibly one aunt.

My family lives with it.  They go on and ignore that they were cheated out of their land and wealth.   They aren't going against the lawyers family on their own accord wirth weapons.

Furthermore if the higher authorties or the community at a whole... or whatever... said to my family "Look we can help you... but this is all we can get you back."  My family would accept whatever they could get back happily.

2)  Israel didn't take their land.  The UK, LoN and UN did.  All the Zionist movement did was lobby for Israel.  Because they perffered it to Kenya.  Or some other similar african country.  I forget which one they offered.

They were offered it... and they said "we'd perfer israel... since we believe it's our homeland."

And then... that was it.  The UK said "Ok!" and gave it to them... part of Palestine anyway.

Then the UN came in and said "OK the UK set up.  What we're going to do is set up these two countries.

The Palestinians said "Hell no." and started a war.  Which they lost.

Now they want to go back to the terms they agreed on before the war.

Which is pretty ridiculious.  I mean what kind of world would it be where you can opt out of contracts and deals... and them if things go bad and you couldn't get more... you can get back the deal with no problems, hard feeleings and concessions.

Palestine has had chances to get back nearly everything set up in that UN accord.  Yet they aren't happy with it.  Hell I don't even think they'd be happy with the full UN accord.  They would still be firing rockets at Israel.

1) Your family should have fought back. To lay down and just take it is stupid and if that were the way we all behaved US would never had been created, instead we would have just kept paying taxes to the English.

2) Bolded. Arabs had and have every right to fight the illegal and racist policy that has continuously stripped them of their land. Had the Arabs won the war in 1948, do you think the rest of the world would have just accepted Jewish defeat? Hell no, they would have brought in their own armies to ensure a creation of Israel.

Also, Arabs are NOT asking for the original land given by UN. They are asking for less than 1/2 of that based on the 1967 borders. Arabs have already conceded that the rest is lost, excluding Hamas obviously.

Also, might does not make right. All might does is force its will.



superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:

1) If I saw you with my car I would report it to the authorties.  In the case of Palestine case the UN.  If I couldn't give it back I would move on.

In fact I can actually do you one better.

My great grandmother wasn't a rich woman.  But she owned a lot of land.  She had a lawyer right up a will.  Said lawyer convinced her that to save her kids, grand kids and great grand kids some trouble by making him executor of her will.  They were friends you see.  She babysat his kids so she trusted him.

She wrote of the will and gave him control.  When she died,  the lawyer refused to split up everything to the family as it was since "It wasn't perfectly even, therefore the land had to be kept until sold."  The lawfirm refused to sell it.  My family agreed to a number of things among themselves even agreeing to "sell" there shares to all one person in the family.

The lawyers still wouldn't budge.  And they slowley took fees from the estates value until the lawyer owned it.   They then turned that land around and sold it for millions because it was on valuable land.   My family had a chance of being rich, which would of been a big thing for my family since none of my relatives have been to college outside of myself... and possibly one aunt.

My family lives with it.  They go on and ignore that they were cheated out of their land and wealth.   They aren't going against the lawyers family on their own accord wirth weapons.

Furthermore if the higher authorties or the community at a whole... or whatever... said to my family "Look we can help you... but this is all we can get you back."  My family would accept whatever they could get back happily.

2)  Israel didn't take their land.  The UK, LoN and UN did.  All the Zionist movement did was lobby for Israel.  Because they perffered it to Kenya.  Or some other similar african country.  I forget which one they offered.

They were offered it... and they said "we'd perfer israel... since we believe it's our homeland."

And then... that was it.  The UK said "Ok!" and gave it to them... part of Palestine anyway.

Then the UN came in and said "OK the UK set up.  What we're going to do is set up these two countries.

The Palestinians said "Hell no." and started a war.  Which they lost.

Now they want to go back to the terms they agreed on before the war.

Which is pretty ridiculious.  I mean what kind of world would it be where you can opt out of contracts and deals... and them if things go bad and you couldn't get more... you can get back the deal with no problems, hard feeleings and concessions.

Palestine has had chances to get back nearly everything set up in that UN accord.  Yet they aren't happy with it.  Hell I don't even think they'd be happy with the full UN accord.  They would still be firing rockets at Israel.

1) Your family should have fought back. To lay down and just take it is stupid and if that were the way we all behaved US would never had been created, instead we would have just kept paying taxes to the English.

2) Bolded. Arabs had and have every right to fight the illegal and racist policy that has continuously stripped them of their land. Had the Arabs won the war in 1948, do you think the rest of the world would have just accepted Jewish defeat? Hell no, they would have brought in their own armies to ensure a creation of Israel.

Also, Arabs are NOT asking for the original land given by UN. They are asking for less than 1/2 of that based on the 1967 borders. Arabs have already conceded that the rest is lost, excluding Hamas obviously.

Also, might does not make right. All might does is force its will.

1) So we should of went to that guys families house and beat them with baseballbats? Then have the whole family fight the US government to the death?

He did everything within the law.  The penalty for living in a world of laws is that occasionally a slimeball will get around them and use them to his advantage to get shit done.

2) I actually do think had the middle east won the 1948 war nobody would of did shit.  Who would of?  America and Russia were at odds with each other arlready... and the Middle East at that time had no connections either way... having been supporters of the Nazis. The parties looking to take control were to varied with too many different allegiences for either side to intervene.  They didn't go pro-soviet until later.

(Which was another one of Hitlers blunders.  Had he gone after the Middle East instead of Russia.  He'd of been greeted as a liberator from the allies and had all the oil he needed.)

That leaves... who...?  Europe?  Europe had to worry about rebuilding.

As for the pre-1967 borders... same problem isn't it.  There were borders.  They weren't liked.  So a coalition prepaired to attack Israel... war started... and that was that.

 



Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:

1) If I saw you with my car I would report it to the authorties.  In the case of Palestine case the UN.  If I couldn't give it back I would move on.

In fact I can actually do you one better.

My great grandmother wasn't a rich woman.  But she owned a lot of land.  She had a lawyer right up a will.  Said lawyer convinced her that to save her kids, grand kids and great grand kids some trouble by making him executor of her will.  They were friends you see.  She babysat his kids so she trusted him.

She wrote of the will and gave him control.  When she died,  the lawyer refused to split up everything to the family as it was since "It wasn't perfectly even, therefore the land had to be kept until sold."  The lawfirm refused to sell it.  My family agreed to a number of things among themselves even agreeing to "sell" there shares to all one person in the family.

The lawyers still wouldn't budge.  And they slowley took fees from the estates value until the lawyer owned it.   They then turned that land around and sold it for millions because it was on valuable land.   My family had a chance of being rich, which would of been a big thing for my family since none of my relatives have been to college outside of myself... and possibly one aunt.

My family lives with it.  They go on and ignore that they were cheated out of their land and wealth.   They aren't going against the lawyers family on their own accord wirth weapons.

Furthermore if the higher authorties or the community at a whole... or whatever... said to my family "Look we can help you... but this is all we can get you back."  My family would accept whatever they could get back happily.

2)  Israel didn't take their land.  The UK, LoN and UN did.  All the Zionist movement did was lobby for Israel.  Because they perffered it to Kenya.  Or some other similar african country.  I forget which one they offered.

They were offered it... and they said "we'd perfer israel... since we believe it's our homeland."

And then... that was it.  The UK said "Ok!" and gave it to them... part of Palestine anyway.

Then the UN came in and said "OK the UK set up.  What we're going to do is set up these two countries.

The Palestinians said "Hell no." and started a war.  Which they lost.

Now they want to go back to the terms they agreed on before the war.

Which is pretty ridiculious.  I mean what kind of world would it be where you can opt out of contracts and deals... and them if things go bad and you couldn't get more... you can get back the deal with no problems, hard feeleings and concessions.

Palestine has had chances to get back nearly everything set up in that UN accord.  Yet they aren't happy with it.  Hell I don't even think they'd be happy with the full UN accord.  They would still be firing rockets at Israel.

1) Your family should have fought back. To lay down and just take it is stupid and if that were the way we all behaved US would never had been created, instead we would have just kept paying taxes to the English.

2) Bolded. Arabs had and have every right to fight the illegal and racist policy that has continuously stripped them of their land. Had the Arabs won the war in 1948, do you think the rest of the world would have just accepted Jewish defeat? Hell no, they would have brought in their own armies to ensure a creation of Israel.

Also, Arabs are NOT asking for the original land given by UN. They are asking for less than 1/2 of that based on the 1967 borders. Arabs have already conceded that the rest is lost, excluding Hamas obviously.

Also, might does not make right. All might does is force its will.

1) So we should of went to that guys families house and beat them with baseballbats? Then have the whole family fight the US government to the death?

He did everything within the law.  The penalty for living in a world of laws is that occasionally a slimeball will get around them and use them to his advantage to get shit done.

2) I actually do think had the middle east won the 1948 war nobody would of did shit.  Who would of?  America and Russia were at odds with each other arlready... and the Middle East at that time had no connections either way... having been supporters of the Nazis. The parties looking to take control were to varied with too many different allegiences for either side to intervene.  They didn't go pro-soviet until later.

(Which was another one of Hitlers blunders.  Had he gone after the Middle East instead of Russia.  He'd of been greeted as a liberator from the allies and had all the oil he needed.)

That leaves... who...?  Europe?  Europe had to worry about rebuilding.

As for the pre-1967 borders... same problem isn't it.  There were borders.  They weren't liked.  So a coalition prepaired to attack Israel... war started... and that was that.

 

1) lol no. I did not mean to physically fight back. I meant to use media or other legal means.

2) bolded: While technically true, it isn't the same situation. After the 1948 borders the world by large looked the other way at the land Israel took as a result of the war. However, in this case, no nation accepts Gaza and WB as Israeli land. Even UN resolutions and International laws support an Israeli pullout. Most importantly the greater majority of Arab parties have submitted a really well drawn out agreement to a separation based on that border.

 



I have a feeling if there is ever another Arab-Israeli war, there won't be any Arabs left in Israel afterwards.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

If I was, I'd be ashamed of how my people have been used to justify antisemitism in the world.

And would be a double agent for the Jews in a flippin' second.

 

 

Also, can we stop calling them Palestinians they are nothing more then outcast criminals from every country in that area. Sheesh. They're as much Palestinians as I am the love child of Godzilla and King Kong.

 

wait, my parents do have a lot of hair.