NJ5 said: Slimebeast said: MikeB said: @ Slimebeast Blu-ray duble layer discs have 45GB effective storage availabe for games, right? Where did you get this from?    I dunno, I think I saw the number 45Gb and Bluray mentioned in the thread, perhaps it was NJ5, so  I assumed that was a reference to the effective storage space on double layer Blurays. What's the right number then? The number we can compare to the 6.8GB for DVD9? No, it was not me. I don't have any idea what's the usable space in a dual-layer BD disc. It doesn't seem dual-layer BD performance is too great though, as evidenced by the fact that MGS4 has HD installs.

45GB is the available storage for data on a Bluray disc, be it video, or data or whatever. A single layer disc can hold 23.3GB. If you relate this back to DVD where a single layer can hold 4.37GB and a double layer 7.95GB. There's always going to be some overhead and you won't get TWICE the storage on a double layer, since extra error correction blocks are needed due to the extra layer and it being harder to read. I'm not sure how much of that 45GB the PS3 uses for other stuff, not a lot I wouldn't think.

The comparison to the 6.9 GB available for the 360 is pointless. What are we comparing exactly? We all know that long games like RPGs will be spread over multiple discs. No other games have suffered due to the 6.8GB available. Swapping discs in RPGs has never bothered anyone who actually has done it. Only the people who like to make the PS3 look better by declaring it a problem.

 

The PS3 reads dual layer BD media at 2x - same as single layer. It's only in modern drives that reading is affected. For example my LG GGW-H20L can read at a maximum of 6x. It does it through CAV. So it starts at around 2.6x-6x-back down 2.6x on a dual layer disc.

 

 It's called a BD25\BD50 for the same reasons as a DVD is called a DVD5\DVD9.

It's the number of gb available using BINARY counting, where a kb = 1000 bytes. In reality its 1024 bytes + filesystem overhead. Same when you buy a hard drive and it is sold to you as 500GB but it is actually 465GB

Guiding Light said: 45GB is the available storage for data on a Bluray disc, be it video, or data or whatever. A single layer disc can hold 23.3GB. If you relate this back to DVD where a single layer can hold 4.37GB and a double layer 7.95GB. There's always going to be some overhead and you won't get TWICE the storage on a double layer, since extra error correction blocks are needed due to the extra layer and it being harder to read. I'm not sure how much of that 45GB the PS3 uses for other stuff, not a lot I wouldn't think. The comparison to the 6.9 GB available for the 360 is pointless. What are we comparing exactly? We all know that long games like RPGs will be spread over multiple discs. No other games have suffered due to the 6.8GB available. Swapping discs in RPGs has never bothered anyone who actually has done it. Only the people who like to make the PS3 look better by declaring it a problem.   The PS3 reads dual layer BD media at 2x - same as single layer. It's only in modern drives that reading is affected. For example my LG GGW-H20L can read at a maximum of 6x. It does it through CAV. So it starts at around 2.6x-6x-back down 2.6x on a dual layer disc.

And now that hard drive installs are possible on the 360, the relatively few multi-disc games can be installed and have zero swapping required.  But no PS3 fan would likely point this out.

 

Ausfalcon said: MikeB said: @ nightsurge Wow, so MikeB is the same on all the forums he visits. Go figure. Quite sad really. What do you mean? Of course I am the same on the forums I visit, I would call that consistency. Usually considered a positive trade. Except that it would seem that unconnected people at different websites all come to the same assessment of you independently, and its to a scarey degree how the assessments are so alike, and most of it negative. Now, you can continue living life thinking everyone else must be nuts, or maybe it should clue you in to the fact that its seems you have some problems. I don't mean you any offense, honestly, but it should probably give you pause.

Of course I try to self-reflect.

I had much support over the years, but for many of those people posting on that board I had become their arch enemy.

From a 2004 interview with former KMOS/Amiga CEO Garry Hare:

"Mike Bouma. During the initial phases of research I "reached out" to a few individuals asking for help. I know some were friends of Amiga's and others probably sought to limit any personal liability. One evening I received unbelievable documents. I was already convinced that what we were dealing with was little more than misusing the Courts to steal property. This document made me angry. Around 1 AM I pick up the folder labelled Mike Bouma and read it a couple times. He knew exactly what was going on and didn't mince words about the issue. I felt better. I like you style, Mike."

Yes, such comments had their backslash on me amongst the haters. 'The friend of my "arch enemy", is also my enemy', kind of thinking. Former Tao Group CEO Francis Charig even send me an email stating he thought those Moobunny guys are nuts.

MikeB said: Of course I try to self-reflect. I had many support over the years, but for many of those people posting on that board I had become their arch enemy. From a 2004 interview with former KMOS/Amiga CEO Garry Hare: "Mike Bouma. During the initial phases of research I "reached out" to a few individuals asking for help. I know some were friends of Amiga's and others probably sought to limit any personal liability. One evening I received unbelievable documents. I was already convinced that what we were dealing with was little more than misusing the Courts to steal property. This document made me angry. Around 1 AM I pick up the folder labelled Mike Bouma and read it a couple times. He knew exactly what was going on and didn't mince words about the issue. I felt better. I like you style, Mike." Yes, such comments had their backslash amongst haters. 'The friend of my "arch enemy", is also my enemy', kind of thinking.

Mike,

Although I disagree with you more often than not, I still respect the fact that you don't resort to name calling and insults in your arguments.  And while I believe that there are times you shy away from some data that seem to contradict your position, I've never felt that you would openly lie or intentionally deceive.  I just think you've come to the wrong conclusion on some issues.

 

crumas2 said: MikeB said: Of course I try to self-reflect. I had many support over the years, but for many of those people posting on that board I had become their arch enemy. From a 2004 interview with former KMOS/Amiga CEO Garry Hare: "Mike Bouma. During the initial phases of research I "reached out" to a few individuals asking for help. I know some were friends of Amiga's and others probably sought to limit any personal liability. One evening I received unbelievable documents. I was already convinced that what we were dealing with was little more than misusing the Courts to steal property. This document made me angry. Around 1 AM I pick up the folder labelled Mike Bouma and read it a couple times. He knew exactly what was going on and didn't mince words about the issue. I felt better. I like you style, Mike." Yes, such comments had their backslash amongst haters. 'The friend of my "arch enemy", is also my enemy', kind of thinking. Mike, Although I disagree with you more often than not, I still respect the fact that you don't resort to name calling and insults in your arguments.  And while I believe that there are times you shy away from some data that seem to contradict your position, I've never felt that you would openly lie or intentionally deceive.  I just think you've come to the wrong conclusion on some issues.

You've nailed it on the head, problem is this has the effect of...

1. Making the less informed believe things he says, which are nearly always wrong.

2. Stops him getting banned from forums for peddling what is basically FUD. Which is bannable if proven on forums like this. It's called trolling\stealth trolling.

3. People who do know what they're talking about get highly irritated by him because of this FUD and aren't quite as good with the english language, or quite frankly just can't be bothered to be polite to someone who is in their eyes "talking shit".

 

Another thing that MikeB does is constantly take quotes out of context, use sources from people such as himself who also don't really understand what they are talking about.

I'm sorry crumas2, and I do respect you but I have to disagree with this, it's happened just too many times. Either you are right and MikeB is a very very confused man. Or you are wrong and he is one the biggest stealth troll peddling FUDders on vgchartz...I'm no fanboy but there is nothing more annoying that someone spouting rubbish and everyone believing them.

In MikeB's case I sincerly believe he does it deliberately and his post history confirms this beyond reasonable doubt. 

 

@ crumas2

Thanks.



I do my best.

To be more complete here is some more information regarding my take on what happened over the years based on what I have been told and personal experience.

In addition there have been other issues, I was once part of the Phoenix Developer Consortium. At a time Gateway owned Amiga's assets, they partnered with QNX Software Systems to use QNX Neutrino at the core of a new Amiga operating system. Sadly due to Gateway being a PC maker, Microsoft pressured them to kill the project (PC manufacturers get discounts on Windows, they wouldn't get them anymore which would cost them many millions, this is what Amiga's CTO claimed but is in line with Gateway testimonials regarding the antitrust case against Microsoft by a former CEO of the company later on).

Out of the ashes rised the Phoenix Developer Consortium with the QSSL's CEO Dan Dodge as one of the key members. But after my meeting with him, I came to the conclusion he wasn't all that committed to the project and I passed my findings to the rest of the consortium, some of the consortium members got upset and believed I was lying, but it turned out to be correct. Many of the phoenix group would later turn towards Thendic (/later Genesi) or Hyperion.

The only interesting indirect Amiga product which came from the dealing of QNX with the Amiga community was AmigaOS XL by Haage & Partner (probably one of the most hated companies amongst the former Phoenix Group developers). It was an interesting emulation platform though, basically running a classic AmigaOS environment on top of QNX Realtime platform. It had some interesting features such as within the adapted QNX OS it would suddenly have an Amiga-like title bar, with which you simply clicked a button to switch to AmigaOS (and vice versa), you could also launch QNX apps from AmigaOS and vice versa. But alledgedly H&P, failed to pay royalties for AmigaOS 3.9 usages to Amiga Inc and pay one key developer of Amithlon.

That's just a small snip of a very long story, but illustrates why there is some bad blood amongst certain ex-Amiga developers / supporters. It's really a complex and extensive story. Just reading the court documents of the various lawsuits and their allegations will make your head spin. Even I'm a bit out of loop by now.

In the end most issues regarded people taking sides or money/IP related disputes. I got caught in the middle mostly as I wanted to help push the AmigaOS4 project forward which is now at a pretty advanced state, but there's still a long way to go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx3q2wFIn6k
http://arstechnica.com/software/news/2008/09/amigaos41-ars.ars

NJ5 said: I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if the "wasted" 1.7 GB includes the filesystem as well as other stuff which also exists on other game disc formats. I would certainly hope they didn't use 1.7 GB just for DRM.

 

Although I am not sure if this is the case for the 360 in particular,  I was under the impression that game copy protection on the consoles in the past were implemented by randomly distributing errors throughout the disk whose positions the console's disk reader would hash and compare against a checksum stored at a known location. Obviously, the random distribution of the errors means that performance would neither be helped nor hindered.

However, I doubt the 1.7 GB is for DRM or FS overhead. If I had to guess, I would say it's likely mostly used to allow for better production yeilds either through larger Reed-Solomon codes or some other means.

alephnull said: NJ5 said: I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if the "wasted" 1.7 GB includes the filesystem as well as other stuff which also exists on other game disc formats. I would certainly hope they didn't use 1.7 GB just for DRM.     Although I am not sure if this is the case for the 360 in particular,  I was under the impression that game copy protection on the consoles in the past were implemented by randomly distributing errors throughout the disk whose positions the console's disk reader would hash and compare against a checksum stored at a known location. Obviously, the random distribution of the errors means that performance would neither be helped nor hindered. However, I doubt the 1.7 GB is for DRM or FS overhead. If I had to guess, I would say it's likely mostly used to allow for better production yeilds either through larger Reed-Solomon codes or some other means.

 

 

Guys I've already told you....

 

The Xbox 360 uses about 7GB of the 7.95GB capacity.

Dummy\Padding partition is anywhere from 1mb and upwards depending on game data size.

Game data partition is up to 6.9GB

Video partition is the other 150mb -ish

The rest of the disc CONTAINS NO DATA ON IT.

The DRM is...

1. Unreadable errors placed in dummy\padding partition.

2. Security Sector which is normally unreadable to any PC DVD drive, unless you own a hacked Kreon drive.

3. DMI\PFI Sector, also placed in dummy\padding partition.

That is all.

There is no "massive" protection totallying ridiculous amounts placed after the 7GB limit.

Please for the love of god stop making assumptions, guesses, being cynical, not believing me.

If you REALLY want to know...and you still don't believe me go and ask at...

http://www.xbox-scene.com

or

http://www.xboxhacker.net

The 2 most respected places for hacked firmware\modding discussion on the internet.

The creators of the iXtreme firmware post on those forums (c4eva)

 

This is such a basic question and answers that I can't believe you guys don't just eat what I say. It's not a debate, I'm not guessing, I'm telling you as it is. I have no idea why MS don't use more of the 7GB on the disc. But I can caterforically tell you it contains NOTHING. No data, no protection. NOTHING.

 

We clear now?

Just for the records as I've already said I rip my own discs for backups using a kreon drive. The size of the image ripped is 7GB (it's actually a tiny bit more but we're talking about 50mb).

Guiding Light said: alephnull said: NJ5 said: I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if the "wasted" 1.7 GB includes the filesystem as well as other stuff which also exists on other game disc formats. I would certainly hope they didn't use 1.7 GB just for DRM.     Although I am not sure if this is the case for the 360 in particular,  I was under the impression that game copy protection on the consoles in the past were implemented by randomly distributing errors throughout the disk whose positions the console's disk reader would hash and compare against a checksum stored at a known location. Obviously, the random distribution of the errors means that performance would neither be helped nor hindered. However, I doubt the 1.7 GB is for DRM or FS overhead. If I had to guess, I would say it's likely mostly used to allow for better production yeilds either through larger Reed-Solomon codes or some other means.     Guys I've already told you....   The Xbox 360 uses about 7GB of the 7.95GB capacity. DummyPadding partition is anywhere from 1mb and upwards depending on game data size. Game data partition is up to 6.9GB Video partition is the other 150mb -ish The rest of the disc CONTAINS NO DATA ON IT. The DRM is... 1. Unreadable errors placed in dummypadding partition. 2. Security Sector which is normally unreadable to any PC DVD drive, unless you own a hacked Kreon drive. 3. DMIPFI Sector, also placed in dummypadding partition. That is all. There is no "massive" protection totallying ridiculous amounts placed after the 7GB limit. Please for the love of god stop making assumptions, guesses, being cynical, not believing me. If you REALLY want to know...and you still don't believe me go and ask at... http://www.xbox-scene.com or http://www.xboxhacker.net The 2 most respected places for hacked firmwaremodding discussion on the internet. The creators of the iXtreme firmware post on those forums (c4eva)   This is such a basic question and answers that I can't believe you guys don't just eat what I say. It's not a debate, I'm not guessing, I'm telling you as it is. I have no idea why MS don't use more of the 7GB on the disc. But I can caterforically tell you it contains NOTHING. No data, no protection. NOTHING.   We clear now?

My appologies, your post was buried pretty deep in the thread and I missed it. However for the record I said I didn't think there was 1.7 GB used for DRM.