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Forums - General - Why Capitalists feel Capitalism is best for all.

pearljammer said:
Kasz216 said:
pearljammer said:
Kasz216 said:
pearljammer said:
TheRealMafoo said:
pearljammer said:

Just one last post...

I would agree with your second suggestion. I'm not overly familiar with the US education system, but here in Canada it is at a provincial level. It'd probably be even more effective at a regional level.

 

In 1953 the US started running education at the federal level. Before that it was run either at the state level, or more localized. It was considered a state issue, so each state did it a little differently.

Education was a lot better back then. Today, in the sate I live in, we collect about 20k per student enrolled. I am not against that huge sum of money, but think of the education that could buy if you had a more efficient system to spend it in. The top private schools don't cost that much.

The problem with that comparison is that the top private schools still don't have the high needs that public schools have, especially in inner-city schools.

@donathos: I wouldn't bother. Anyone claiming to know that "Most of the jobs that require the same amount of education are really a lot harder" without teaching before simply has no idea what they're talking about in this regard.

Most classrooms that are innercity share the issues that you have said, but usually to a much lesser extreme. Even taking away from all of that, just dealing with the academics alone is a difficult task. Teaching to 35 fourteen year olds (in one class, about 150 in total), each having completely different learning abilities, attitudes, priorities, and support at home as well as at school is an incredibly difficult thing to do. I'll admit, I'm not the greatest at it yet, it takes times, there are several changes the teacher needs to make about themselves as well. A jobs' difficultly cannot purely be measured upon the 'meatiness' of the material you are dealing with.

So, Kasz, I ask you again. What, exactly, makes microbiologists' job 'harder' or more 'tough' than a teachers? What qualifies you to make such a judgment?

My response to both questions is:

  1. I have no idea which is harder; and
  2. I'm not, as I haven't been a microbiologist at any point in my life

 

The college work alone is much harder... most people... even with college degrees could not get through the bachelors program for microbiology... let alone harder the latter programs.

Less people are qualified to be them.

 

Ok, so the amount of study and cognitive ability may need to be greater in order to study microbiology, I'll give you that. But how does that necessarily encompass the entire job? I don't suppose you mean to say that whatever program is more difficult to make it through in university will always be the harder job? That'd be a gross oversimplification.

Again, does that necessarily make it the harder job? What kind of education would you need to become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Compare that to the education of a microbiologist. Is it simple enough to say that it's easier to study one program than the other so one job is more difficult?

Many things play into the difficulty of a job. Not just the core content of what your job may consist of.

It does make it a harder job though. 

Less people could be microbiologists.

The less people that can do something... the harder the job it is.

I mean... if only one person in the world was qualfied to become a quantum engineer who built stuff out of Quantum particles...

His job would be the hardest in the world... even if for him it was as easy as tieing his shoes.

There are other factors sure.... but if the base requirmenets in one category outweigh another by a substnatial amount... it's a lot harder to do it just based on the fact that not as many people can.

2nd bold: That's the key factor here. The Fortune 500 CEO need only but a lowly Business degree (joking) which I'm sure we can all agree is easier to accomplish than earning one in microbiology. It's these other factors that make the CEO's job potenially more difficult than the microbiologists. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that difficulty is completely related to the amount of stress it puts on the worker. So many things factor in here, and are based on opinion, that I would think it immeasurable.

1st bold: I don't think it's as simple as a hierarchical list based on difficulty of obtaining a college degree.

edit: I think I can see a slight difference in how we are approaching this question: You see it as 'Which job is harder?'. I see it as 'Which job is harder on you?'. Personally, I see no difference between the two but I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

So in otherwords you think it's harder being a factory worker then say an accountant or teacher.

 



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Kasz216 said:

None of that actually proves me wrong....

Well yeah humankind wouldn't be distinct, but society would have big problems. Countries would break down to small village-communities, which no safety that they are attacked by other communities? Why? Who overviews, that they all have the same basic culture of right and wrong? Need an example?

-Even if you put religion in this it wouldn't work, how many religious groups are there just in the USA which share one god, but interprete his so called words totally different?

-Germany in the ancient world: all thought they were Germans in basic, but without something to unite them (i.e. Romans) they had a fairly good time attacking each other

Next thing about home-schooling is that you normally lack of social skills. I can't her talk for myself, because home-schooling is a actually an offence in Germany, but I got an American friend, who got homeschooled, and actually thinks that this is the case for her. And she had to learn it the hard way. If you want to prevent that you put them together with other kids and then you got schools again. Problem then: the teachers are amateurs and if this would happen around the world probably 80% of the people would be uneducated from a nowadays stand point. But there would be teachers.

Next problem diversity: You would be just schooled by one person or a group which are close associates. School teachers have totally different opinions, etc. That's how you learn to anticipate reason and thinking. You just don't learn the way to create some things.

 

 

and no apprenticeship is NOT a school system.

It's actually one of the oldest. A kid goes to a master to learn some special knowledge. How can that not be a school system?

 

If your opinion is "if no one ever taught anyone anything ever" then yeah nobody would learn shit.

It's not like i'm saying that stuff is more effective or as effective as teaching.  It's just Vlads assumption and statement that if school teachers disapeered suddenly all knowledge would disapear and everyone would have to constantly reinvent everything.

That's stupid.  Incredibly stupid.

 

So how the hell would you preserve all the technical invention. One example from history is the knowledge drop between the ancient world and the middle ages. Why was that so? Because the whole sholarsystem in europe was destroyed except for monasteries. What are monasteries except for religion? Schools! SO everybody would have like 10-20 books, but you can't really put that knowledge together anymore.

 

Off course not all knowledge disappears, but I doubt much more then just basic technology would survive. Why is that so? Co operation! Thats where we are back at social skills. Anyways the country this happens in would be down and a target for everyone else who didn't chose to do that, so it won't survive long enough to see all knowledge go. But if this would happen around the world I'll take a bet within a century about 60-90% of all knowledge would be disappeared and just a fairy tale in people's  minds.

Example?

-Who long did it take in Europe to have the ability to build big buildings like the colosseum again? I would say about 1000 years at least.

 

That would be like me saying the world couldn't exist without garbage men.  Because if garbage men didn't exist our garbage would pile up out of control and we'd all die of mega plagues.

 

Actually this was exactly what happened in the middle ages. Well of course it well never happen that everybody dies.

 

Teaching is an inherently favorable proffession.  People WANT to be teachers.  Lots of them.   So there is no reason to pay as much for less favorable jobs.

 

The question about this is: Can you keep the balance between getting all the best heads to teach and pass their knowledge on or do you get none. Remember: If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

 

 



None of that is even remotley true. If we got rid of public schooling the country would break into small city states? What?

Your whole arguement is ridiculious... I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Well actually I do.  Rome.  Pretty much nobody in Rome went to schools.  So... yeah.  No.

So yeah... society could get along fine without teachers as they are now.  As great, no.  Society would not collapse though.  That's idiotic.

 

Also California.  Best paid teachers in the country.

California 47th when it comes to educational achievement.

Teachers in general make more in the US then other coutnries to my knowledge.  Yet the US educational system sucks.



Kasz216 said:

None of that is even remotley true. If we got rid of public schooling the country would break into small city states? What?

Your whole arguement is ridiculious.

 

Aha. You think the whole argument is ridiculous, because you don't believe my worst case scenario? So I stop bringing up my arguments for a moment and I simply ask you:

Name one country in the world which has as the political form a democracy and doesn't have a public school system.

 

Then please name another country which is not in war and doesn't have a public school system

 

And by they way: Where did I write about public schools anyway in my text??? You were talking about all the teachers gone, I answered that.

 

That'll be interesting



fmc83 said:
Kasz216 said:

None of that is even remotley true. If we got rid of public schooling the country would break into small city states? What?

Your whole arguement is ridiculious.

 

Aha. You the whole argument is ridiculous, because you don't believe my worst case scenario? So I stop bringing up my arguments for a moment and I simply ask you:

Name one country in the world which has as the political form a democracy and doesn't have a public school system.

 

Then please name another country which is not in war and doesn't have a public school system

 

That'll be interesting

That's like saying "Name a democracy that doesn't have cars."

i can't name one that currently exists.  Yet a democracy could certaintly exist without cars.

Also not in war?  What does that have to do with anything?

Books =/= teachers.

 

 



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fmc83 said:
Kasz216 said:

None of that is even remotley true. If we got rid of public schooling the country would break into small city states? What?

Your whole arguement is ridiculious.

 

Aha. You think the whole argument is ridiculous, because you don't believe my worst case scenario? So I stop bringing up my arguments for a moment and I simply ask you:

Name one country in the world which has as the political form a democracy and doesn't have a public school system.

 

Then please name another country which is not in war and doesn't have a public school system

 

And by they way: Where did I write about public schools anyway in my text??? You were talking about all the teachers gone, I answered that.

 

That'll be interesting

Teacher = A person who teaches as their profession.

If there were no teachers, things such as apprenticeship would pop up again, homeschooling, self learning etc.

Society would not collapse.  That's ridiculious.

If there weren't people who teach as a proffesion, others would pick up the slack.  Just as, if there weren't garbage men... people would take their own garbage to the dumps.

Have you never learned something out of a book for gods sake.

People learn shit like computer programming without going to a single class every day... and computer programming is pretty damn complicated.



Kasz216 said:

That's like saying "Name a democracy that doesn't have cars."

i can't name one that currently exists.  Yet a democracy could certaintly exist without cars.

Also not in war?  What does that have to do with anything?

Books =/= teachers.

 

Teachers = People who teach as a proffession.

If there were no teachers, things such as apprenticeship would pop up again, homeschooling, self learning etc.

 

 

Hope you don't matter that I brought your two statements back together in one. As I edited my text in between.

About the war thing: just a gimmick, because some african so called democracies don't have even a basic one, but they are all in civil war.

 

About the car thing, well democracies existed without technology as we have it now, but they never endured very long without professional teachers. You admit that it is inefficient. I add here, that this is mainly because of the lose of knowledge and if they don't get professional again in some time most of the knowledge will be gone.

I feel like this is going nowhere, so let's say what is really your point and then it makes more sense

 

My point is modern society doesn't work without professional teachers.

 

edit: to your edit : Yes, I've learned a lot from books, but without somebody learning me how to learn and actually use a book, I would've probably just get half of the information out of it. Have you ever read highly scientific books? Good luck if nobody could tell you specific words etc.

garbage men: some would do it, many won't



Kasz216 said:
pearljammer said:
Kasz216 said:
pearljammer said:
Kasz216 said:
pearljammer said:
TheRealMafoo said:
pearljammer said:

Just one last post...

I would agree with your second suggestion. I'm not overly familiar with the US education system, but here in Canada it is at a provincial level. It'd probably be even more effective at a regional level.

 

In 1953 the US started running education at the federal level. Before that it was run either at the state level, or more localized. It was considered a state issue, so each state did it a little differently.

Education was a lot better back then. Today, in the sate I live in, we collect about 20k per student enrolled. I am not against that huge sum of money, but think of the education that could buy if you had a more efficient system to spend it in. The top private schools don't cost that much.

The problem with that comparison is that the top private schools still don't have the high needs that public schools have, especially in inner-city schools.

@donathos: I wouldn't bother. Anyone claiming to know that "Most of the jobs that require the same amount of education are really a lot harder" without teaching before simply has no idea what they're talking about in this regard.

Most classrooms that are innercity share the issues that you have said, but usually to a much lesser extreme. Even taking away from all of that, just dealing with the academics alone is a difficult task. Teaching to 35 fourteen year olds (in one class, about 150 in total), each having completely different learning abilities, attitudes, priorities, and support at home as well as at school is an incredibly difficult thing to do. I'll admit, I'm not the greatest at it yet, it takes times, there are several changes the teacher needs to make about themselves as well. A jobs' difficultly cannot purely be measured upon the 'meatiness' of the material you are dealing with.

So, Kasz, I ask you again. What, exactly, makes microbiologists' job 'harder' or more 'tough' than a teachers? What qualifies you to make such a judgment?

My response to both questions is:

  1. I have no idea which is harder; and
  2. I'm not, as I haven't been a microbiologist at any point in my life

 

The college work alone is much harder... most people... even with college degrees could not get through the bachelors program for microbiology... let alone harder the latter programs.

Less people are qualified to be them.

 

Ok, so the amount of study and cognitive ability may need to be greater in order to study microbiology, I'll give you that. But how does that necessarily encompass the entire job? I don't suppose you mean to say that whatever program is more difficult to make it through in university will always be the harder job? That'd be a gross oversimplification.

Again, does that necessarily make it the harder job? What kind of education would you need to become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Compare that to the education of a microbiologist. Is it simple enough to say that it's easier to study one program than the other so one job is more difficult?

Many things play into the difficulty of a job. Not just the core content of what your job may consist of.

It does make it a harder job though. 

Less people could be microbiologists.

The less people that can do something... the harder the job it is.

I mean... if only one person in the world was qualfied to become a quantum engineer who built stuff out of Quantum particles...

His job would be the hardest in the world... even if for him it was as easy as tieing his shoes.

There are other factors sure.... but if the base requirmenets in one category outweigh another by a substnatial amount... it's a lot harder to do it just based on the fact that not as many people can.

2nd bold: That's the key factor here. The Fortune 500 CEO need only but a lowly Business degree (joking) which I'm sure we can all agree is easier to accomplish than earning one in microbiology. It's these other factors that make the CEO's job potenially more difficult than the microbiologists. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that difficulty is completely related to the amount of stress it puts on the worker. So many things factor in here, and are based on opinion, that I would think it immeasurable.

1st bold: I don't think it's as simple as a hierarchical list based on difficulty of obtaining a college degree.

edit: I think I can see a slight difference in how we are approaching this question: You see it as 'Which job is harder?'. I see it as 'Which job is harder on you?'. Personally, I see no difference between the two but I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

So in otherwords you think it's harder being a factory worker then say an accountant or teacher.

 

Not necessarily. I said it was more complicated than that. There are things more trying than physical activity. But, again, it all depends on the person.

I simply think that it is naive to think that one can base the difficulty of a job on the education required alone.

 



fmc83 said:
Kasz216 said:

That's like saying "Name a democracy that doesn't have cars."

i can't name one that currently exists.  Yet a democracy could certaintly exist without cars.

Also not in war?  What does that have to do with anything?

Books =/= teachers.

 

Teachers = People who teach as a proffession.

If there were no teachers, things such as apprenticeship would pop up again, homeschooling, self learning etc.

 

 

Hope you don't matter that I brought your two statements back together in one. As I edited my text in between.

About the war thing: just a gimmick, because some african so called democracies don't have even a basic one, but they are all in civil war.

 

About the car thing, well democracies existed without technology as we have it now, but they never endured very long without professional teachers. You admit that it is inefficient. I add here, that this is mainly because of the lose of knowledge and if they don't professional again in some time most of the knowledge will be gone.

I feel like this is going nowhere, so let's say what is really your point and then it makes more sense

 

My point is modern society doesn't work without professional teachers.

Modern soceity would work without teachers.  Not as efficently.  But it would work.

We have way too much of a collection of information for it to be otherwise.

Based off your statement about proffesional teachers.  I could just as eaisly say democracy hasn't lasted long without guns.  And it'd be just as right.



fmc83 said:
Kasz216 said:

That's like saying "Name a democracy that doesn't have cars."

i can't name one that currently exists.  Yet a democracy could certaintly exist without cars.

Also not in war?  What does that have to do with anything?

Books =/= teachers.

 

Teachers = People who teach as a proffession.

If there were no teachers, things such as apprenticeship would pop up again, homeschooling, self learning etc.

 

 

Hope you don't matter that I brought your two statements back together in one. As I edited my text in between.

About the war thing: just a gimmick, because some african so called democracies don't have even a basic one, but they are all in civil war.

 

About the car thing, well democracies existed without technology as we have it now, but they never endured very long without professional teachers. You admit that it is inefficient. I add here, that this is mainly because of the lose of knowledge and if they don't professional again in some time most of the knowledge will be gone.

I feel like this is going nowhere, so let's say what is really your point and then it makes more sense

 

My point is modern society doesn't work without professional teachers.

 

edit: to your edit : Yes, I've learned a lot from books, but without somebody learning me how to learn and actually use a book, I would've probably just get half of the information out of it. Have you ever read highly scientific books? Good luck if nobody could tell you specific words etc.

garbage men: some would do it, many won't

Actuall yes.

I have... and i've learned a lot from them.

For example I have a very good understanding of Quantum Physics that i picked up soley through reading books, papers and articles.

For finding the meanings of specific words we have dictionaries.

Most of the more complicated information I know actually comes from self learning as my degree is in psychology.