Ascended_Saiyan3 said: Squilliam said: Ascended_Saiyan3 said: WarmachineX said: There is no future for bluray in gaming. period I doubt even sony will have a br drive on its next system* (if there is one)   Is there a particular reason you believe that? I guess you think games will be larger than 400GB next gen. I expect a 6x to 8x Blu-ray drive (36MB/s). That would be faster than the 2.5 SATA hard drive in the PS3 now (30MB/s continuous). For those that don't know, there is a difference between "B" and "b" in the data world. A 250GB HDD averages 50MB/S @5400RPM (2.5") A 500GB HDD averages 63MB/S @5400RPM (2.5")       Speeds shouldn't change with increase/decrease in storage capacity. Look at the "rotating disk" section of the chart.  May I see a link from you?

And Blu Ray speeds are magic and fairy dust? No, its due to increased density of data.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/scorpio-notebook-hdd,2109-4.html

A link.

 

Squilliam said: Ascended_Saiyan3 said: Squilliam said: Ascended_Saiyan3 said: WarmachineX said: There is no future for bluray in gaming. period I doubt even sony will have a br drive on its next system* (if there is one)   Is there a particular reason you believe that? I guess you think games will be larger than 400GB next gen. I expect a 6x to 8x Blu-ray drive (36MB/s). That would be faster than the 2.5 SATA hard drive in the PS3 now (30MB/s continuous). For those that don't know, there is a difference between "B" and "b" in the data world. A 250GB HDD averages 50MB/S @5400RPM (2.5") A 500GB HDD averages 63MB/S @5400RPM (2.5")       Speeds shouldn't change with increase/decrease in storage capacity. Look at the "rotating disk" section of the chart.  May I see a link from you? And Blu Ray speeds are magic and fairy dust? No, its due to increased density of data. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/scorpio-notebook-hdd,2109-4.html A link.

WTH?  "Magic and fairy dust"?

Anyway, 40MB/s (sustained) seems to be about the average.  LOL...smack dab in the middle of my statement and your low end statement.

 

^ It would help to know the size of the disc.

It's pretty obvious to me he's telling the truth except in one (very important I might add) area.... major PS3 exclusives do look as good if not better than 360 exclusives. See GT5P, MG4 and KZ2 for examples.

Major point he made (though it's well known) is it takes a lot more effort and resources to get the best out of the PS3 than on the 360.

Two things many people seem to forget in these threads:

First, developers need to make money to stay in business and major changes in how you develop software is a significant cost. Yes the PS3 has potential to do some amazing things with it's architecture but it requires training and effort to tap it that no other systems do. Now if the PS3 had been released with an SDK that hid a lot of the complexity and allowed developers to tap this power without having to significantly change how they work then the PS3 would have been a undeniable technical success. But it was not so developers are left with the difficult choice of investing to get up to speed on a new way of doing things or not leverage that power in an optimal way.

Second, even if you want to invest in becoming a "real" PS3 developer finding engineers that can handle the concepts involved in developing for this architecture is difficult, hell it is hard finding engineers that are decent at multi threading. I have worked in software development for 20 years building multi tiered client server applications on parallel architectures. The hardest part of my job has been finding people that understand the concepts involved well enough do the work at an acceptable level. This is not just a matter of going to amazon and buying a book on parallel processing and spending a week playing around with it, there are some difficult concepts involved that are just beyond most peoples grasp without significant education. Even then a lot of people will just never be able to think in the way required to be good at this sort of thing.

If you combine these factors with how the market share breaks down it is not a good business decision for anyone but a first party developer to become good at PS3 development. Just learn enough to get performance to match the 360 version.

So my point of all this is don't blame the developers for not investing in learning the PS3, blame Sony for making them chose between staying in business and taking advantage of the potential of PS3.

^ I have to agree with the above.

billsalias said: Two things many people seem to forget in these threads: First, developers need to make money to stay in business and major changes in how you develop software is a significant cost. Yes the PS3 has potential to do some amazing things with it's architecture but it requires training and effort to tap it that no other systems do. Now if the PS3 had been released with an SDK that hid a lot of the complexity and allowed developers to tap this power without having to significantly change how they work then the PS3 would have been a undeniable technical success. But it was not so developers are left with the difficult choice of investing to get up to speed on a new way of doing things or not leverage that power in an optimal way. Second, even if you want to invest in becoming a "real" PS3 developer finding engineers that can handle the concepts involved in developing for this architecture is difficult, hell it is hard finding engineers that are decent at multi threading. I have worked in software development for 20 years building multi tiered client server applications on parallel architectures. The hardest part of my job has been finding people that understand the concepts involved well enough do the work at an acceptable level. This is not just a matter of going to amazon and buying a book on parallel processing and spending a week playing around with it, there are some difficult concepts involved that are just beyond most peoples grasp without significant education. Even then a lot of people will just never be able to think in the way required to be good at this sort of thing. If you combine these factors with how the market share breaks down it is not a good business decision for anyone but a first party developer to become good at PS3 development. Just learn enough to get performance to match the 360 version. So my point of all this is don't blame the developers for not investing in learning the PS3, blame Sony for making them chose between staying in business and taking advantage of the potential of PS3.

You need to read my post at the bottom of page 16. The one talking about the GDC (Game Developers Conference) 2009. The PhyreEngine is available for ALL PS3 developers. You are talking about the past. Remember, games are in development for quite some time (2 to 3 years). I guess you could blame Sony for coming out with a new concept to push gaming forward. New concepts ALWAYS requires a learning period. A LOT of these developers just didn't want to learn how to parallelize their code. Now they are starting to understand that learning the Cell helps them on PC with mulit-core programming. Bad code is their worse enemy.

Badassbab said: It's pretty obvious to me he's telling the truth except in one (very important I might add) area.... major PS3 exclusives do look as good if not better than 360 exclusives. See GT5P, MG4 and KZ2 for examples. Major point he made (though it's well known) is it takes a lot more effort and resources to get the best out of the PS3 than on the 360.

As it's been stated several times, it's an OLD article (about 2 years old). Developers are now realizing that the PS3 isn't really hard to develop for. The tools are there for them now to make quick use of the Cell. The community has started turning around on their hard nose approach to the system. With Sony's independent developer program (they match the developer's investment DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR), developers have changed their view on these things. It's a new day.

Ascended_Saiyan3 said: Badassbab said: It's pretty obvious to me he's telling the truth except in one (very important I might add) area.... major PS3 exclusives do look as good if not better than 360 exclusives. See GT5P, MG4 and KZ2 for examples. Major point he made (though it's well known) is it takes a lot more effort and resources to get the best out of the PS3 than on the 360.   As it's been stated several times, it's an OLD article (about 2 years old). Developers are now realizing that the PS3 isn't really hard to develop for. The tools are there for them now to make quick use of the Cell. The community has started turning around on their hard nose approach to the system. With Sony's independent developer program (they match the developer's investment DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR), developers have changed their view on these things. It's a new day.

Oh really?  Have any examples of developers that have gone PSN exclusive since this was announced?  Sure it has potential to help some very small developers, but as I said a while ago, with the bandwidth fees not applying to this "Development Costs covered" the gains up front are slowly erased to the point that they actual spend more on fees than they did on development, thus erasing any advantage.

I think most indie developers have taken the time to look over this very fact, which is why we haven't seen a rush of new PSN games announced in the last few weeks.  Xbox Live is still the place to make the most coin for an indie developer.

 

nightsurge said: Ascended_Saiyan3 said: Badassbab said: It's pretty obvious to me he's telling the truth except in one (very important I might add) area.... major PS3 exclusives do look as good if not better than 360 exclusives. See GT5P, MG4 and KZ2 for examples. Major point he made (though it's well known) is it takes a lot more effort and resources to get the best out of the PS3 than on the 360.   As it's been stated several times, it's an OLD article (about 2 years old). Developers are now realizing that the PS3 isn't really hard to develop for. The tools are there for them now to make quick use of the Cell. The community has started turning around on their hard nose approach to the system. With Sony's independent developer program (they match the developer's investment DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR), developers have changed their view on these things. It's a new day. Oh really?  Have any examples of developers that have gone PSN exclusive since this was announced?  Sure it has potential to help some very small developers, but as I said a while ago, with the bandwidth fees not applying to this "Development Costs covered" the gains up front are slowly erased to the point that they actual spend more on fees than they did on development, thus erasing any advantage. I think most indie developers have taken the time to look over this very fact, which is why we haven't seen a rush of new PSN games announced in the last few weeks.  Xbox Live is still the place to make the most coin for an indie developer.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/sony-to-match-dev-budgets-in-return-for-exclusivity