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Forums - General - Question about what Obama just said.

mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Let me put this into perspective... I pay over 35% in taxes, and I work for a living (I am not rich).

That means if the government took there share first, I would have to work January, and give it all to them. Then work February, and give it all to them. Then work March, and give it all to them. Then work April, and give it all to them. After a few days in May, I can start keeping what I make.

If I was in the lower 30% income earners, I would start keeping what I make January 1.

Somehow, I think I do ok by the poor. Asking me to do more is a little crazy. 

I ... don't believe those nuimbers.

Exactly what don't you believe? That's exactly what American taxation is like.

I'll give you an example from my actual work stub:

Income Earned: $5,025

  • Federal Income Taxes: $598
  • Medicare: $70
  • Social Security: $301
  • State Income Taxes: $122

That's 21.7% + State Sales Tax (7.0% where I live, on all purchases) on whatever I buy, which equals out to about 28.7%. I make $30,000/yr on salary, so I am certainly in the lower section of taxation. In my case, every 4th paycheck goes to the government for FIT, Medicare, SS, and SIT alone. If you are on welfare, or the like, you keep your money, and do not get taxed on it.

Now, in my case:

  • I will never use medicare (I have private health insurance through my company)
  • I will never withdrawl from Social Security (virtually useless. Will put about 1/2 what is taken out in SS into a 401k or other investment and make far, far more)
  • I was never publically schooled. I was home schooled, and my education cost under $500/yr

Yet I pay for them. Crazy world with crazy taxes. I think that some of the people arguing on these forums about taxation have never paid taxes, and realized how their money gets spent. Americans constantly argue about minimum/living wages, but fail to realize that a large part of what could be living wages are taken out via taxation, and not due to minimum standards.

I could respond to some of the things you have said, but I don't have to.  You are complaining that despite relatively low income you pay a lot in taxes.  He is complaining (in this exchange) that people with low income DON'T pay taxes.



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mrstickball said:
SciFiBoy said:

how do you know that? maybe they arent as strong as you, maybe they arent as fast as you, they cant help that, its genetics, why shouldnt you help the less able?

Why are you so willing to assume that, 100% of the time, that the person cannot help their predicament?

I'll give you a little life-tip: People aren't created equal. But people also do not put equal effort into their life or lifestyle. If a man decides to not work out of laziness, should you provide food for him? If a man smokes, uses heavy drugs, and develops complications from that, should you pay extra (while living healthy yourself) to ensure the sick man that lived poorly is taken care of?

If you live smartly, invest your money wisely, and have a good job because your motivated, should someone forcefully take from you to give to someone that lives stupidly, blows their money on useless goods, has no job 'just cuz'? I don't see life that way. That's why there are some like Mafoo, and myself that believe that all men are created equal, but not everyone puts the same effort into their life and lifestyle, and should not expect to recieve the same reward. If a man works hard, gets promotions - should he not benefit from it? Shouldn't a person that lives dangerously be punished by the reprocussions of his bad actions?

 

humans are imperfect, do thoose imperfections make them less human, the answer is no, therefore they deserve what i deserve or what you deserve, we are all human, therefore we all have human rights

 



Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Let me put this into perspective... I pay over 35% in taxes, and I work for a living (I am not rich).

That means if the government took there share first, I would have to work January, and give it all to them. Then work February, and give it all to them. Then work March, and give it all to them. Then work April, and give it all to them. After a few days in May, I can start keeping what I make.

If I was in the lower 30% income earners, I would start keeping what I make January 1.

Somehow, I think I do ok by the poor. Asking me to do more is a little crazy.
I ... don't believe those numbers.
What numbers do you think are wrong? We live in the same high taxed state btw :p

Well, although I'm not sure about you paying over 35% in taxes, it's certainly conceivable. But I am completely sure that you are wrong about the lowest 30% not paying any taxes, unless you are only talking about income taxes and not payroll taxes or any other taxes -- which is pretty meaningless for such a discussion IMO.

 

I just did the math. 32%. So, I would start taking home pay the last day or so in April.

The poor probably pay something, but not very much. In the end, they pay nothing, as there tax credits come back. Some of mine comes back to however, so it ends up less then 32%



mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Let me put this into perspective... I pay over 35% in taxes, and I work for a living (I am not rich).

That means if the government took there share first, I would have to work January, and give it all to them. Then work February, and give it all to them. Then work March, and give it all to them. Then work April, and give it all to them. After a few days in May, I can start keeping what I make.

If I was in the lower 30% income earners, I would start keeping what I make January 1.

Somehow, I think I do ok by the poor. Asking me to do more is a little crazy. 

I ... don't believe those nuimbers.

Exactly what don't you believe? That's exactly what American taxation is like.

I'll give you an example from my actual work stub:

Income Earned: $5,025

  • Federal Income Taxes: $598
  • Medicare: $70
  • Social Security: $301
  • State Income Taxes: $122

That's 21.7% + State Sales Tax (7.0% where I live, on all purchases) on whatever I buy, which equals out to about 28.7%. I make $30,000/yr on salary, so I am certainly in the lower section of taxation. In my case, every 4th paycheck goes to the government for FIT, Medicare, SS, and SIT alone. If you are on welfare, or the like, you keep your money, and do not get taxed on it.

Now, in my case:

  • I will never use medicare (I have private health insurance through my company)
  • I will never withdrawl from Social Security (virtually useless. Will put about 1/2 what is taken out in SS into a 401k or other investment and make far, far more)
  • I was never publically schooled. I was home schooled, and my education cost under $500/yr

Yet I pay for them. Crazy world with crazy taxes. I think that some of the people arguing on these forums about taxation have never paid taxes, and realized how their money gets spent. Americans constantly argue about minimum/living wages, but fail to realize that a large part of what could be living wages are taken out via taxation, and not due to minimum standards.

What is your effective tax rate after deductions and everything?

I like the idea of not being taxed for things you don't use. For example: I haven't had certain treatments for cancer, so any money that ends up going for research shouldn't be my tax dollars. I don't have kids, why pay taxes for local schools? I don't really care about being invaded so I don't want money going to arms services. I have a gun so I don't want police. I walk everywhere, so I don't need to pay for roads. < I like the idea of every individual selecting what they don't want to pay for because they personally won't need it. That's the kind of society I could get behind.  

I've paid taxes. I owed California 600 bucks a couple years ago, I guess they didn't take out enough (I paid taxes, am I now more qualified to debate something or have an opinion? Oh boy!)

 



SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:

how do you know that? maybe they arent as strong as you, maybe they arent as fast as you, they cant help that, its genetics, why shouldnt you help the less able?

 

I should help the less able, and I would. My government should never force me too though. In the example I gave, how is it not stealing from me if I say no?

 

how can you be trusted to give them that money? what if most people dont give that money? you then have poverty and your workforce shrinks, now instead of a 25 farmers, 5 of which are less able, you have 20 farmers, less work can be done

 

 

So you put trust in government, but not the people. I put trust in the people, not the government.



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Final-Fan said:

I could respond to some of the things you have said, but I don't have to.  You are complaining that despite relatively low income you pay a lot in taxes.  He is complaining (in this exchange) that people with low income DON'T pay taxes.

Many do not.

 

humans are imperfect, do thoose imperfections make them less human, the answer is no, therefore they deserve what i deserve or what you deserve, we are all human, therefore we all have human rights

What does a human deserve? Everything possible, even if it makes those around him get far less than their capable of? 

If you really believed in that 'humans deserve everything' stuff, I think you should take every dime you earn, and send it to Africa/South Asia to ensure that they get what you believe every human needs.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Final-Fan said:

I could respond to some of the things you have said, but I don't have to.  You are complaining that despite relatively low income you pay a lot in taxes.  He is complaining (in this exchange) that people with low income DON'T pay taxes.

Many do not.

 

humans are imperfect, do thoose imperfections make them less human, the answer is no, therefore they deserve what i deserve or what you deserve, we are all human, therefore we all have human rights

What does a human deserve? Everything possible, even if it makes those around him get far less than their capable of? 

If you really believed in that 'humans deserve everything' stuff, I think you should take every dime you earn, and send it to Africa/South Asia to ensure that they get what you believe every human needs.

 

again, this is just ignorant, if you look at the example proggessive tax model i posted earlier in the thread, its far from every penny, its nowhere near that infact, its a fair proportion of youre income



TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:

how do you know that? maybe they arent as strong as you, maybe they arent as fast as you, they cant help that, its genetics, why shouldnt you help the less able?

 

I should help the less able, and I would. My government should never force me too though. In the example I gave, how is it not stealing from me if I say no?

 

how can you be trusted to give them that money? what if most people dont give that money? you then have poverty and your workforce shrinks, now instead of a 25 farmers, 5 of which are less able, you have 20 farmers, less work can be done

 

 

So you put trust in government, but not the people. I put trust in the people, not the government.

i trust people with many, many things, voulantry paying taxes, no, some humans are greedy so wont pay them if given the option

 



mrstickball said:

If you really believed in that 'humans deserve everything' stuff, I think you should take every dime you earn, and send it to Africa/South Asia to ensure that they get what you believe every human needs.

He is not to be trusted. Africa needs to come take it from him.



jv103 said:

What is your effective tax rate after deductions and everything?

I like the idea of not being taxed for things you don't use. For example: I haven't had certain treatments for cancer, so any money that ends up going for research shouldn't be my tax dollars. I don't have kids, why pay taxes for local schools? I don't really care about being invaded so I don't want money going to arms services. I have a gun so I don't want police. I walk everywhere, so I don't need to pay for roads. < I like the idea of every individual selecting what they don't want to pay for because they personally won't need it. That's the kind of society I could get behind.  

I've paid taxes. I owed California 600 bucks a couple years ago, I guess they didn't take out enough (I paid taxes, am I now more qualified to debate something or have an opinion? Oh boy!)

 

My effective tax rate after deductions is around 21% this year. I had very few deductions that led to any sort of decrease in my effective tax rate.

I was not complaining about what I don't use that I am paying for. Merely pointing out the irony in the system. My problem is that an answer that has everybody paying greater amounts based on income, or on equal footing regardless of their lifestyle is a bad idea.

A great example of governent-gone-right is the idea of requiring car insurance to drive (as they do in the state of Ohio). The government mandates it, but does not provide the service. Because of this, there is open competition for rates, and companies vie for signing me onto their programs. Not only this, every service is dependant on your driving record, and habits so bad drivers have to pay more.

 



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.