Poor people in the US don't pay taxes. And no, they eat. They just don't pay the medical bill.

What world do you live in?

All Humans Have Basic Rights

you dont get it do you, we pay taxes, taxes are used to benefit us, these benefits from our taxes include healthcare, education, police and the military, basic rights the government provide are Health, Education, Shelter, Protection, Privacy and a degree of Personal Freedom (they let you do what you want within reason)

oic, you think africans and mexicans should die in there own country or on your streets then, good to know

SciFiBoy said: Broncos724 said: SciFiBoy said: Broncos724 said: SciFiBoy said: coolestguyever said: SciFiBoy said: use Progressive Taxation to raise more money, then make a NHS in the US, afterall healthcare is a basic human right   Progressive taxation: Punishing people for working hard - rewarding the poor   wrong, statistics show someone on the average wage works the same hours as someone in a multi-million dollar hedge fund   The number of hours one works is not the sole determiner of how "hard" someone works.  And yes, progressive taxation is a dis-incentive to working harder, how could it NOT be?   because a banker who earns 500k a year and failed there employer works alot harder than a nurse on 20-30k year who makes people feel better, somehow i dont think so, progressive taxation is fair as you pay what you can afford to pay rather than making the poor pay more than 600k a year financial sector workers I never claimed salary was the indicator of how hard someone works, either.  But I agree with you, in terms of physical and mental labor, those with lower salaries or who are low on the "ladder" work harder, so they can rise.  But how do you think the 100K+ bankers got where they are?  Hard work of course!  Not sure what "making people feel better" has to do with this argument though? Fair to me is paying the same percentage of your income to taxes as everyone else.  And it still means the poorer you are, the less you pay, so what's unfair about that?     so anyone who dosent earn enough to get private healthcare just isnt working hard enough and deserves to die from cureable diseases, thats good to know, besides how can you define hard work? surely a low paid nurse works harder than a programmer but the nurse is payed much less and may like her job and be happy to stay in it, we do need nurses afterall, if everyone got promoted, no-one would do low paid jobs that are essential to any nation, also like i said you should pay in tax what you can afford to pay in tax, thats fair, and that will help thoose less fortunate then you to get healthcare and an education.

If the nurse is happy to stay at her job then she can't complain about low wages, duh!  Perhaps the nurse does work harder than a programmer, but that's not what determines a salary.  What determines a salary is how rare a skillset is, and you simply cannot argue that more people could excel at being a nurse than excel at being a programmer.  That's why a programmer makes so much money.  And there will ALWAYS be people to the entry-level, low paying jobs, simply because ANYBODY can do them.

"You should pay in tax what you can afford to pay in tax" ????????  Are you serious?  That is so backwards and against the principles of the founding of America it's unbelievable.  You're saying everything that people earn beyond "living wage" should be surrendered to the government?  Wow

Well now, that depends on what you call "poor", and whether you count sales tax, payroll tax, etc. 

And maybe they pay the medical bill but have to go to the food bank that week. 

Seems to me he lives in this world. 

Broncos724 said: SciFiBoy said: Broncos724 said: SciFiBoy said: Broncos724 said: SciFiBoy said: coolestguyever said: SciFiBoy said: use Progressive Taxation to raise more money, then make a NHS in the US, afterall healthcare is a basic human right   Progressive taxation: Punishing people for working hard - rewarding the poor   wrong, statistics show someone on the average wage works the same hours as someone in a multi-million dollar hedge fund   The number of hours one works is not the sole determiner of how "hard" someone works.  And yes, progressive taxation is a dis-incentive to working harder, how could it NOT be?   because a banker who earns 500k a year and failed there employer works alot harder than a nurse on 20-30k year who makes people feel better, somehow i dont think so, progressive taxation is fair as you pay what you can afford to pay rather than making the poor pay more than 600k a year financial sector workers I never claimed salary was the indicator of how hard someone works, either.  But I agree with you, in terms of physical and mental labor, those with lower salaries or who are low on the "ladder" work harder, so they can rise.  But how do you think the 100K+ bankers got where they are?  Hard work of course!  Not sure what "making people feel better" has to do with this argument though? Fair to me is paying the same percentage of your income to taxes as everyone else.  And it still means the poorer you are, the less you pay, so what's unfair about that?     so anyone who dosent earn enough to get private healthcare just isnt working hard enough and deserves to die from cureable diseases, thats good to know, besides how can you define hard work? surely a low paid nurse works harder than a programmer but the nurse is payed much less and may like her job and be happy to stay in it, we do need nurses afterall, if everyone got promoted, no-one would do low paid jobs that are essential to any nation, also like i said you should pay in tax what you can afford to pay in tax, thats fair, and that will help thoose less fortunate then you to get healthcare and an education.   If the nurse is happy to stay at her job then she can't complain about low wages, duh!  Perhaps the nurse does work harder than a programmer, but that's not what determines a salary.  What determines a salary is how rare a skillset is, and you simply cannot argue that more people could excel at being a nurse than excel at being a programmer.  That's why a programmer makes so much money.  And there will ALWAYS be people to the entry-level, low paying jobs, simply because ANYBODY can do them.   "You should pay in tax what you can afford to pay in tax" ????????  Are you serious?  That is so backwards and against the principles of the founding of America it's unbelievable.  You're saying everything that people earn beyond "living wage" should be surrendered to the government?  Wow

i live in the UK not the US for which im eternaly greatfull, anyway its often still more than a living wage.

example:

someone earning up to 10k a year pays 0% tax
10-20k pays 5%
20-50k pays 10%
50-100k pays 25%
100-1m pays 50%
1m+ pays 75%

so if you earn 50k you pay 5k in tax (45k after tax salary), if you earn 500k you pay 150k in tax (at you earn 350k) if you earn 2m you pay 1.5m in tax (500k at salary) seems reasonable enough to me

Those are not basic rights. Basic rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

life meaning no one has the right to take it away from me, liberty meaning no one has the right to indenture me, and the pursuit of happiness, meaning I have the freedom to do whatever I like, provided it does not infringe on others rights.

It's a little deeper then that, but for this argument, that's good enough.

So you have your list and I have mine. Let's say tomorrow, everyone just stops working. for a year, no one does anything productive.

How do I get healthcare? How do I get educated? If those are rights, they should be inherent. If no one works, those services (not rights) go away. The rights I laid out are still there, because they are rights.

Heathcare is not a right.

He lives in a world where I want slaves, live in a mansion, and if my politics were enacted (the ones we have had for 200 years), all the poor people would die and I would live on the street.

That's this world?

I'm sorry, but humans don't really have any "guaranteed" rights. Our perceived rights only last as long as the government is there to "guarantee" it. If America were to somehow fall into anarchy no one is going to not rob or shoot you because you have that "right"...at that point it would be laughable. My main point, I guess, is you have to make things happen for yourself and not expect things to be provided for you.

I don't think you get it.

There's a difference between mandating something take place, such as 'everyone must attend school', and who controls it. The argument is that the government is the worst company to monopolize an industry. If your government decided that Microsoft should handle the healthcare industry, would you approve of it? Why then is the government this magical cure-all to healthcare woes? The government is about as apt to provide proper services as MS would in the healthcare field.

For example, the great institution of American social security. Every US citizen is forced to drop 8-9% of their weekly wages (unless self-employed, or a government worker) into a system that earns them below inflation on what they 'invest'. You are not allowed to pick a better invesment service with the 8-9%. You are allowed to invest whatever else you bring home, but not what is forced to go into Social Security.

Healthcare can, and is, the same way. Is universal healthcare a basic human right? No. But access is. There's a big difference between forcing someone into something, and allowing access to the service when it's needed. At any rate, the next step of the issue is the forcing of every citizen into a one-size-fits-all system where a rich person must pay their fair share into healthcare for a person that just doesn't care about their body - thus inflating HC premiums.

Government monopolizing an industry is a very bad thing. If we have the same aprehensions about one company dominating a whole industry being bad for business, then the common sense of it should apply to government.

If you want to argue that healthcare must be made universal for every person, I can understand that. However, forcing government to be the owner of the entire industry is a bad thing, especially in America (with such a large country). It's destroyed our education system, our retirement, and most every other service the Govt. controls. Healthcare would be no different. I am smarter than my public school counterparts, and my education cost about 1/20th of theirs. My state-run retirement system earned me 10-12% interest per year versus Social Security at 2%, and so on. Please don't believe the lie that the government has honest purposes for everything out there. If we sorry about corporate greed, and seek to ensure that they don't control our lives, we must place the same questions on the governments controlling all aspects of our education, health, and retirement, too.