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Forums - General - Obama might be the dumbest president we have ever had.

Tyrannical on 16 March 2009
SciFiBoy said:
um, isnt the root cause of the crisis the overcomplication of the financial sector and inter bank lending as well, its not just loans to small bussiness and 100%+ mortgages, i think Obama is talking about sensible lending, not the reckless lending that happend before the crisis

 

 The root cause of the problem was a Democratic policy of encouraging housing loans to unqualified poor and minorty borrowers, who then defaulted in record numbers.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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akuma587 on 16 March 2009
Tyrannical said:
SciFiBoy said:
um, isnt the root cause of the crisis the overcomplication of the financial sector and inter bank lending as well, its not just loans to small bussiness and 100%+ mortgages, i think Obama is talking about sensible lending, not the reckless lending that happend before the crisis

 

 The root cause of the problem was a Democratic policy of encouraging housing loans to unqualified poor and minorty borrowers, who then defaulted in record numbers.

Definitely had nothing to do with the reckless financial practices of every major bank in the country.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Tyrannical on 17 March 2009
akuma587 said:
Tyrannical said:
SciFiBoy said:
um, isnt the root cause of the crisis the overcomplication of the financial sector and inter bank lending as well, its not just loans to small bussiness and 100%+ mortgages, i think Obama is talking about sensible lending, not the reckless lending that happend before the crisis

 

 The root cause of the problem was a Democratic policy of encouraging housing loans to unqualified poor and minorty borrowers, who then defaulted in record numbers.

Definitely had nothing to do with the reckless financial practices of every major bank in the country.

 

Of course it did. I'm just saying why it happened.

 



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Moongoddess256 on 17 March 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Moongoddess256 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
rocketpig said:
I think it's bad when an emissary is sent to France, Germany, and Sweden with the idea of convincing their governments to spend their way out of this "crisis" and they all politely say "you're fucking crazy, yankee".

While I appreciate some of the things Obama has done socially (shutting down Gitmo, working to remove "don't ask, don't tell"), his economic policies have been a disaster thus far IMO.

 

from what i understand of economics, you have to spend money to get out of this crisis, doing nothing would be a disaster (massive unemployment, complete collapse of banking system and massive public service cuts, to name a few)

 

In less than two months, he's run the deficit up more than all the presidents before him COMBINED. There is spending money, and then there is what we are doing. It's crazy.

 

 

Also, rather than arguing with you, I advise you look up the great depression and what it was that brought the world out of it. That way you can see for yourself.

You should look at what caused it in the first place.

 

does this mean you didnt look it up? alright look up monetary and fiscal policy instead .

Understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_policy

Monetary policy failed. That leaves us with fiscal policy. It is our only choice.

 

 



[2:08:58 am] Moongoddess256: being asian makes you naturally good at ddr
[2:09:22 am] gnizmo: its a weird genetic thing
[2:09:30 am] gnizmo: goes back to hunting giant crabs in feudal Japan

jv103 on 17 March 2009

Look at it this way, without the artificial inflation of our economy in the last few years or so from the housing boom, we would have been in a recession or a period of stagnation during the last few years. The rides over. Besides I read somewhere, I can't find a source that at least half of the people who got subprime loans had income above the local median...of course prices were so inflated that median income couldn't possibly cover the price of the home (probably shouldn't have bought them).



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akuma587 on 17 March 2009
Tyrannical said:
akuma587 said:
Tyrannical said:
SciFiBoy said:
um, isnt the root cause of the crisis the overcomplication of the financial sector and inter bank lending as well, its not just loans to small bussiness and 100%+ mortgages, i think Obama is talking about sensible lending, not the reckless lending that happend before the crisis

 

 The root cause of the problem was a Democratic policy of encouraging housing loans to unqualified poor and minorty borrowers, who then defaulted in record numbers.

Definitely had nothing to do with the reckless financial practices of every major bank in the country.

 

Of course it did. I'm just saying why it happened.

 

But that's like saying the 2nd Amendment is responsible for gang violence.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Final-Fan on 17 March 2009
akuma587 said:
Tyrannical said:
akuma587 said:
Tyrannical said:
SciFiBoy said:
um, isnt the root cause of the crisis the overcomplication of the financial sector and inter bank lending as well, its not just loans to small bussiness and 100%+ mortgages, i think Obama is talking about sensible lending, not the reckless lending that happend before the crisis
The root cause of the problem was a Democratic policy of encouraging housing loans to unqualified poor and minorty borrowers, who then defaulted in record numbers.
Definitely had nothing to do with the reckless financial practices of every major bank in the country.
Of course it did. I'm just saying why it happened.
But that's like saying the 2nd Amendment is responsible for gang violence.

 Also, is it even true?  (About the Democratic policy leading to the failed loans.)  I understand there was a program that's been around since the '70s; what evidence is there that these loans are failing in greater proportion than other subprime mortgages that have nothing to do with that program (or some other specific program such as you describe)? 

(I'm aware that Democrats were complicit with Republicans in the stripping of regulations that helped to allow the general problems / industry abuse to occur.  But that's not what you seem to be talking about.) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

akuma587 on 17 March 2009
Final-Fan said:

 Also, is it even true?  (About the Democratic policy leading to the failed loans.)  I understand there was a program that's been around since the '70s; what evidence is there that these loans are failing in greater proportion than other subprime mortgages that have nothing to do with that program (or some other specific program such as you describe)? 

(I'm aware that Democrats were complicit with Republicans in the stripping of regulations that helped to allow the general problems / industry abuse to occur.  But that's not what you seem to be talking about.) 

Actually analyzing facts and the relationship between things is obviously unimportant.  So is the fact that this program had not caused problems for over a decade, and in some cases three decades with other legislation, until the financial sector lampooned itself on orgiastic securitization based on giving loans to people that they knew were bad in the first place.

Hey, but obviously guys who have MBA's from Harvard and Yale are too stupid to make these decisions on their own.  They need the government to guide them and tell them what to do.

The ironic thing about this argument Tyrannical is making is that it is based on the assumption that the private sector is too stupid to avoid this problem on its own.  But then in the next sentence people who make that argument will tell you that the government should not intervene into the economy and should let the private sector sort things out on its own.

Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth!

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Final-Fan on 17 March 2009
TheRealMafoo said:
Slimebeast said:
TheRealMafoo said:
SciFiBoy said:
rocketpig said:
I think it's bad when an emissary is sent to France, Germany, and Sweden with the idea of convincing their governments to spend their way out of this "crisis" and they all politely say "you're fucking crazy, yankee".

While I appreciate some of the things Obama has done socially (shutting down Gitmo, working to remove "don't ask, don't tell"), his economic policies have been a disaster thus far IMO.
from what i understand of economics, you have to spend money to get out of this crisis, doing nothing would be a disaster (massive unemployment, complete collapse of banking system and massive public service cuts, to name a few)
In less than two months, he's run the deficit up more than all the presidents before him COMBINED.
I understand u overexaggerated, but is there any truth to that? What are the facts about the size of the Obama budget and reforms so far? 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123629969453946717.html
"Mr. Obama's $3.6 trillion budget blueprint, by his own admission, redefines the role of government in our economy and society. The budget more than doubles the national debt held by the public, adding more to the debt than all previous presidents -- from George Washington to George W. Bush -- combined."

The Author:
Mr. Boskin is a professor of economics at Stanford University and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. He chaired the Council of Economic Advisers under President George H.W. Bush.

If 3.6 trillion "more than doubles the national debt held by the public", why then is the national debt said to be over TEN trillion?  More specifically, why do Wikipedia and the U.S. Treasury website seem to say that the pulic holds over 5.8 trillion of it? 

Also, isn't it a bit dishonest to say that he's done it in two months, when it's all planning and the actual spending will take much longer, even if that number stays true, which it won't necessarily do? 

P.S.  Even casting aside all of the above, if you adjust for inflation, is the assertion still true? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan on 17 March 2009

The thing that REALLY bugs me about blaming the poor people is that AFAIK the failing loans weren't even the main problem per se. It was the securitization. All the loans were put in a blender and sold in pieces to everyone.

1. Let's say the "good" loans are chocolate and the "bad" loans are shit. Some people realize that their banks are no longer necessarily eating their own product, so it's OK to mix some shit in to add to the volume. And anyway, the shit is so spread out that no one will really get hurt much by it, right?

2. Only after a while of this people start noticing that the chocolate tastes like shit. And they can't "unblend" the mix to separate out the chocolate and the shit, and nobody wants to buy the mixture, so now all the chocolate is inedible too. Instead of all of it being good, all of it is bad.

3. Abandoning the metaphor, they can't even renegotiate the shit loans to get at least some of the money back, because they have to coordinate the negotiations with everyone who owns a piece, and the pieces are all over creation. No individual loan is worth the effort, so they have to stand by and watch people default which is worse than renegotiating by far.

This has less to do with the bad loans than with a sick industry that thought it could buy and sell shit and turn it into chocolate. At least, if the understanding I've gleaned from various sources is at all close to accurate. Please do speak up if it appears that I have developed a serious misunderstanding of these issues.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!