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Forums - General - Obama might be the dumbest president we have ever had.

That Guy said:
Conflicts of Interest? The company contracted to do constuction work in Iraq also happened to be owned by the Vice President?

hrm....

 

When Bill Clinton was Govenor of Arkansas, his wife Hillary was hired to lobby him.

I'm not sure how that is different then taking a bribe. It would be like hiring the Judges wife as your defence attorney, and offering her a big bonus if you are found not guilty.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

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Avinash_Tyagi said:
Senlis said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
FDR didn't cause the great depression, he wasn't even in office until years after it began.

As for prolonging it, the only thing he did that prolonged it was trying to balance the budget and cut government spending in 1937

My mistake, I was typing this at work and got my sentances mixed up.

Hoover caused the great depression.  FDR prolonged it.  Look at this article by economist Thomas Sowell

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/12/23/another_great_depression?page=1

"The Vedder and Gallaway statistics allow us to follow unemployment month by month. They put the unemployment rate at 5 percent in November 1929, a month after the stock market crash. It hit 9 percent in December-- but then began a generally downward trend, subsiding to 6.3 percent in June 1930.

That was when the Smoot-Hawley tariffs were passed, against the advice of economists across the country, who warned of dire consequences.

Five months after the Smoot-Hawley tariffs, the unemployment rate hit double digits for the first time in the 1930s."

[...]

"The stock market crash, which has been blamed for the widespread suffering during the Great Depression of the 1930s, created no unemployment rate that was even half of what was created in the wake of the government interventions of Hoover and FDR.

Politically, however, Franklin D. Roosevelt could not have been more successful. After all, he was the only President of the United States elected four times in a row. He was a master of political rhetoric."

[...]

"Today, increasing numbers of scholars recognize that FDR's own policies were a further extension of interventions begun under Hoover. Moreover, the temporary rise in unemployment after the stock market crash was nowhere near the massive and long-lasting unemployment after government interventions."

 

Recheck your history, first off the Tariff was passed in 1930, well before FDR was elected in 1932, secondly unemployment was over 23.6% before FDR was elected, during his first term in office he reduced it below 17%

No, FDR did not cause the GD, and it is incorrect to attribute the S-H Tariff to FDR. Nonetheless, I would be surprised if even the most staunch FDR supports would say that the only thing he did to prolong the GD was to cut spending and balance the budget. The NIRA, for instance, was a disastrous piece of legislation. It exempted companies from antitrust legislation and artificially inflated wages.

 



Jackson50 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Senlis said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
FDR didn't cause the great depression, he wasn't even in office until years after it began.

As for prolonging it, the only thing he did that prolonged it was trying to balance the budget and cut government spending in 1937

My mistake, I was typing this at work and got my sentances mixed up.

Hoover caused the great depression.  FDR prolonged it.  Look at this article by economist Thomas Sowell

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/12/23/another_great_depression?page=1

"The Vedder and Gallaway statistics allow us to follow unemployment month by month. They put the unemployment rate at 5 percent in November 1929, a month after the stock market crash. It hit 9 percent in December-- but then began a generally downward trend, subsiding to 6.3 percent in June 1930.

That was when the Smoot-Hawley tariffs were passed, against the advice of economists across the country, who warned of dire consequences.

Five months after the Smoot-Hawley tariffs, the unemployment rate hit double digits for the first time in the 1930s."

[...]

"The stock market crash, which has been blamed for the widespread suffering during the Great Depression of the 1930s, created no unemployment rate that was even half of what was created in the wake of the government interventions of Hoover and FDR.

Politically, however, Franklin D. Roosevelt could not have been more successful. After all, he was the only President of the United States elected four times in a row. He was a master of political rhetoric."

[...]

"Today, increasing numbers of scholars recognize that FDR's own policies were a further extension of interventions begun under Hoover. Moreover, the temporary rise in unemployment after the stock market crash was nowhere near the massive and long-lasting unemployment after government interventions."

 

Recheck your history, first off the Tariff was passed in 1930, well before FDR was elected in 1932, secondly unemployment was over 23.6% before FDR was elected, during his first term in office he reduced it below 17%

No, FDR did not cause the GD, and it is incorrect to attribute the S-H Tariff to FDR. Nonetheless, I would be surprised if even the most staunch FDR supports would say that the only thing he did to prolong the GD was to cut spending and balance the budget. The NIRA, for instance, was a disastrous piece of legislation. It exempted companies from antitrust legislation and artificially inflated wages.

 

In general that the fact that he sought to control and lower the amount of product that private owners made couldn't of helped that's for sure.

Like paying giant corporations to not produce goods. 

 



Jackson50 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Senlis said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
FDR didn't cause the great depression, he wasn't even in office until years after it began.

As for prolonging it, the only thing he did that prolonged it was trying to balance the budget and cut government spending in 1937

My mistake, I was typing this at work and got my sentances mixed up.

Hoover caused the great depression.  FDR prolonged it.  Look at this article by economist Thomas Sowell

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/12/23/another_great_depression?page=1

"The Vedder and Gallaway statistics allow us to follow unemployment month by month. They put the unemployment rate at 5 percent in November 1929, a month after the stock market crash. It hit 9 percent in December-- but then began a generally downward trend, subsiding to 6.3 percent in June 1930.

That was when the Smoot-Hawley tariffs were passed, against the advice of economists across the country, who warned of dire consequences.

Five months after the Smoot-Hawley tariffs, the unemployment rate hit double digits for the first time in the 1930s."

[...]

"The stock market crash, which has been blamed for the widespread suffering during the Great Depression of the 1930s, created no unemployment rate that was even half of what was created in the wake of the government interventions of Hoover and FDR.

Politically, however, Franklin D. Roosevelt could not have been more successful. After all, he was the only President of the United States elected four times in a row. He was a master of political rhetoric."

[...]

"Today, increasing numbers of scholars recognize that FDR's own policies were a further extension of interventions begun under Hoover. Moreover, the temporary rise in unemployment after the stock market crash was nowhere near the massive and long-lasting unemployment after government interventions."

 

Recheck your history, first off the Tariff was passed in 1930, well before FDR was elected in 1932, secondly unemployment was over 23.6% before FDR was elected, during his first term in office he reduced it below 17%

No, FDR did not cause the GD, and it is incorrect to attribute the S-H Tariff to FDR. Nonetheless, I would be surprised if even the most staunch FDR supports would say that the only thing he did to prolong the GD was to cut spending and balance the budget. The NIRA, for instance, was a disastrous piece of legislation. It exempted companies from antitrust legislation and artificially inflated wages.

 

It's funny how everyone is ready to misread the post to defend FDR.

I did not say FDR passed the tariff; Neither does Sowell.  Hoover passed the tariff, which caused the massive unemployment.

The point is that if FDR had left the economy alone when he came to office, the Great Depression would have ended a lot sooner.  Instead, he expanded on Hoover's legislature with his "New Deal" and prolonged it.  Economists know that during a recession (or depression), there is a certain cycle of going low and then rising back up the businesses have to do before the recession/depression ends.  Government interventions slow that cycle down.

In M.A.S.H., when Charles whould not talk to Hawkeye or B.J., one of the worst insult Hawkeye says to get Charles to speak is "Your family voted for Roosevelt......four times!!!!!!!"

And, before anyone says it, I am not saying Roosevelt is worse than Hoover.  It is that Roosevelt was so popular when in office, as opposed to what people think of him now.

 




 

1. "Government interventions". This suggests that there is NOTHING the government can possibly do in an active manner to improve things, it can only worsen them. I strenuously disagree.

2. "as opposed to what people think of him now." He's still very popular with many people, although it's true people also remember the bad stuff like court packing and the internment camps. While it's true he was more popular then, I think it's a significant overstatement if you're saying he's not popular now.



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Senlis said:

It's funny how everyone is ready to misread the post to defend FDR.

I did not say FDR passed the tariff; Neither does Sowell.  Hoover passed the tariff, which caused the massive unemployment.

The point is that if FDR had left the economy alone when he came to office, the Great Depression would have ended a lot sooner.  Instead, he expanded on Hoover's legislature with his "New Deal" and prolonged it.  Economists know that during a recession (or depression), there is a certain cycle of going low and then rising back up the businesses have to do before the recession/depression ends.  Government interventions slow that cycle down.

In M.A.S.H., when Charles whould not talk to Hawkeye or B.J., one of the worst insult Hawkeye says to get Charles to speak is "Your family voted for Roosevelt......four times!!!!!!!"

And, before anyone says it, I am not saying Roosevelt is worse than Hoover.  It is that Roosevelt was so popular when in office, as opposed to what people think of him now.

 

Economists thought that our economic policies for the last 20 years would result in no problems what so ever and that low taxes and low regulation were ideal for the market.  Look where that got us. 

I don't necessarily think its a good idea to tout economists as the end-all-be-all of economic theory when they all ended up with egg on their face within the last 6 months.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Senlis said:

It's funny how everyone is ready to misread the post to defend FDR.

I did not say FDR passed the tariff; Neither does Sowell. Hoover passed the tariff, which caused the massive unemployment.

The point is that if FDR had left the economy alone when he came to office, the Great Depression would have ended a lot sooner. Instead, he expanded on Hoover's legislature with his "New Deal" and prolonged it. Economists know that during a recession (or depression), there is a certain cycle of going low and then rising back up the businesses have to do before the recession/depression ends. Government interventions slow that cycle down.

In M.A.S.H., when Charles whould not talk to Hawkeye or B.J., one of the worst insult Hawkeye says to get Charles to speak is "Your family voted for Roosevelt......four times!!!!!!!"

And, before anyone says it, I am not saying Roosevelt is worse than Hoover. It is that Roosevelt was so popular when in office, as opposed to what people think of him now.

 

Actually, I did not read your post...therefore, I could not have misread it. I only included it because it contained both of Tyagi's posts. Anyway, you are preaching to the choir. I have, in my own estimation, been the most staunch opponent of Hoover and Roosevelt's policies on VGChartz. Aside from the S-H Tariff, the wage controls that Hoover pressured companies to enact were also detrimental. The wage controls were as equally if not more detrimental than S-H.

 

 



akuma587 said:

Economists thought that our economic policies for the last 20 years would result in no problems what so ever and that low taxes and low regulation were ideal for the market.  Look where that got us. 

I don't necessarily think its a good idea to tout economists as the end-all-be-all of economic theory when they all ended up with egg on their face within the last 6 months.

 

What got us here is politicians (Democrats in particular, who would have guessed).  They pressure Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac into loaning to people who were not qualified for the loans.  The reasons the politicians gave for doing this was that many of the people were minorities.  SM&FM were not rejecting the loans based on race, but because they did not qualify based on income and credit.  Despite that SM&FM approved the loans due to political pressure.

The loans fell through when the applicants couldn't pay them, and that caused the housing market problem.  Funny that not very many people hear that version of the events.

When the housing market crisis caused minor economic problems, the media scared everyone by saying it was the next recession.  When people got afraid, it changed how they spend money, which is the most likely cause of the recession we are in now.

Now we are in a position like we were around 1930 (after the stock market crash, but before the depression started).  The economy is not as great as it used to be, but not bad either.  The economy will most likely stabalize on it's own.  There is a good chance, however, government will pass some ill-advised legislature that will send us into a depression.

I would go find quotes from people who support my statements.  However, when I did that earlier in this thread, people didn't read it properly.  I don't really have the will to do it this time.




 

Senlis said:
akuma587 said:
Economists thought that our economic policies for the last 20 years would result in no problems what so ever and that low taxes and low regulation were ideal for the market.  Look where that got us. 

I don't necessarily think its a good idea to tout economists as the end-all-be-all of economic theory when they all ended up with egg on their face within the last 6 months.
What got us here is politicians (Democrats in particular, who would have guessed).  They pressure Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac into loaning to people who were not qualified for the loans.  The reasons the politicians gave for doing this was that many of the people were minorities.  SM&FM were not rejecting the loans based on race, but because they did not qualify based on income and credit.  Despite that SM&FM approved the loans due to political pressure.

The loans fell through when the applicants couldn't pay them, and that caused the housing market problem.  Funny that not very many people hear that version of the events.

When the housing market crisis caused minor economic problems, the media scared everyone by saying it was the next recession.  When people got afraid, it changed how they spend money, which is the most likely cause of the recession we are in now.

Now we are in a position like we were around 1930 (after the stock market crash, but before the depression started).  The economy is not as great as it used to be, but not bad either.  The economy will most likely stabalize on it's own.  There is a good chance, however, government will pass some ill-advised legislature that will send us into a depression.

I would go find quotes from people who support my statements.  However, when I did that earlier in this thread, people didn't read it properly.  I don't really have the will to do it this time

Or possibly it's because that version of events is not in fact true.  This was handled on the first page(for me anyway, at 50 per); please rebut the WSJ article A_T found that refutes your story.   



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Senlis said:

What got us here is politicians (Democrats in particular, who would have guessed). They pressure Sallie Mae and Freddie Mac into loaning to people who were not qualified for the loans. The reasons the politicians gave for doing this was that many of the people were minorities. SM&FM were not rejecting the loans based on race, but because they did not qualify based on income and credit. Despite that SM&FM approved the loans due to political pressure.

The loans fell through when the applicants couldn't pay them, and that caused the housing market problem. Funny that not very many people hear that version of the events.

I agree that government got us here, but I have different reasons.

It is specious reasoning to blame the crisis on the CRA and Sallie/Freddie. They may have been minor contributors to the crisis, but there are other culprits that, in my opinion, were the main contributors to this crisis. The Fed is culpable in its role in this crisis. It kept interest rates too low for too long. Also, you have a decision by the SEC in 2004, which is when subprime lending increased markedly, to allow certain banks to increase their debt-to-asset ratio. Some, from what I have read, had a debt-to-asset ratio as high as 50-to-1 which significantly increased their risk. The five banks that particpated in this program either failed (Lehman Brothers),  were acquired by bank holding companies (Bear Stearns and Merril Lynch), or converted to bank holding companies (Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley).