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Forums - Sony - EA's Schofield hopes Sony can figure it out...

The PS3's marketshare would have to fall well below half of what the 360's is, in order to justify the shift from PS3 development to 360 development again. Remember it only costs ~%10 of the overall dev cost to port a HD game from one to the other, and you get better results (on both platforms, according to many sources), if you start with the PS3.

I don't think that could happen by the end of the generation -- even if the 360 continues to outsell the PS3 for the entire remainder of the gen.  It has nothing to do with the PS3, and everything to do with both HD platforms combined, ease-of-porting, and the end result -- thanks to the more rigid requirements of the PS3 also happening to yield gains on the 360, when adhered to.

 

Many 360 games, even released recently, only use 1 core, for the most part.  If they were engineered to operate in parallel to begin with, using all three cores would be, potentially, a big  benefit.

As an example, I'll throw out some random game loop concepts, to illustrate:

Game:  32 animated characters onscreen at once, bullets flying around, particle FX, big streaming physics environment, lots of music, sounds, etc., and of course, rendering.

Sample costs (in ms) per frame on a pretend 3.2 GHz PowerPC core ("core 0"):

 

  • Game processing (32 characters + misc stuff): 4 ms
  • character animation: 10 ms
  • sound stuff: 2 ms
  • streaming data: 1 ms
  • particles: 3 ms
  • raycasts (bullets, etc): 1 ms
  • AI: 2 ms
  • physics: 4 ms
  • rendering prep (culling, shadows, etc. etc.): 15 ms
Total: 42 ms (< 25 fps) core 0, 0 ms core 1  & 2

Say that thread 1, of core 2, is used by OS stuff.  Now go the typical X360 "lazy" route, and put some of the "easy to make async" tasks on the other two cores, permanantly:

  • Game processing (32 characters + misc stuff):  4 ms
  • character animation:  10 ms ( split 3/4/3 so easy to make parallel, lets do it here)
  • sound stuff:  (2 ms -- on core 1, HW thread 0)
  • streaming data:  (1 ms -- on core 1, HW thread 1)
  • particles:  (3 ms -- on core 2, HW thread 0)
  • raycasts (bullets, etc):  1 ms
  • AI:  2 ms
  • physics:  4 ms
  • rendering prep (culling, shadows, etc. etc.):  15 ms
Total: 29 ms (a bit over 33 fps) core 0, 7 ms core 1, 6 ms core 2

Now go all out, and design your engine to be parallel from scratch (remember some of core 2 is used by the OS):

  • Game processing (32 characters + misc stuff):  4 ms (2 ms core 0, 1 ms core 1,2)
  • character animation:  10 ms (easy to make parallel.. 3 ms core 0, 4 ms core 1, 3 ms core 2)
  • sound stuff:  2 ms (all core 1)
  • streaming data:  1 ms (all core 1)
  • particles:  3 ms (easy to make parallel and async.. 2 ms core 1, and 1 ms core 2)
  • raycasts (bullets, etc):  1 ms (lets be lazy.. all core 0)
  • AI:  2 ms (sometimes easy to make parallel.. 1 ms core 1, 1 ms core 2)
  • physics:  4 ms (hard to make totally parallel.. lets be lazy and all core 0)
  • rendering prep (culling, shadows, etc. etc.):  15 ms (8 ms core 0, 3 ms each, other cores)
Total, core 0: 18 ms (just below 60 fps..), core 1: 14 ms, core 2: 10 ms


Now... I made it prettier than it usually is.  You also have to factor in that managing parallelism costs some as well, but in general, designing in parallel is a huge, huge win, in the end.  Developing on the 360 makes it easy to use the extra cores -- too easy, some might say.  Getting 30 fps isn't too hard, in our pretend game, with the 360, if you take the easily parallel tasks on shove them on the "spare" CPUs when you need it.  Getting to the holy grail of 60 fps, however, requires better design from the outset -- you can't re-engineer it to be awesomely parallel and faster later on.

If you "look closely", you can see why even the best-engineered apps on the PS3 aren't really all that much faster than the 360 -- the only stages, on the CPU, that really stand to benefit from large scale parallelism are the animation and rendering prep stages, which are inherently expensive and intensely mathematical.  Even so, if you double the parallel power of the machine at those stages, you still only shave a few ms off the top.  (of course, that's a big deal when you're talking 16ms vs 18ms -- i.e. 30fps vs 60, but alot of the time, games just don't get into 60 fps-land to begin with).

Of course, if you design (rather than merely engineer) your game well -- to have lots of animated characters (e.g. Heavenly Sword, God of War, KZ2, MAG, etc.) or lots of math-intensive graphics tech (shadows, lighting, etc... i.e. KZ2), or lots of specialized physics (InFamous, maybe LBP, etc.), you're going to get even better results from the PS3.

 



 

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heruamon said:

Well, while it's not the push of a panic button, but you've gotta wonder what he means by this statement?  Some would have you believe that all is swell is PS3 land, it's interesting what EA's concern in approaching development on the PS3. 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-exec-crosses-fingers-for-sonys-future

I know in the past, EA has stated that PS3 would be the lead console:

http://gamer.blorge.com/2008/08/04/ea-focus-on-ps3-as-lead-platform-for-game-development/

But this was all based on EA's perception that PS3 would start to dominate the 360, and eventually the Wii:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-expects-ps3-to-outsell-360-in-2008

Well...the 360 got a timely price cut to boost the heck out of the holiday season, but it also received a slew of content that really helped to push consoles.  With that said, the console was still on track to top EA's estimates, and 2008 probably provided M$ with a big stick to bash a weakened EA over the head, for publicly making those estimates in early 2008.  Looking at some franchises like Mass Effect...if I was M$, I'd play hardball like hell with EA to keep it exclusive for as long as possible.  No exclusive, not “privileged status” at launched…see Gears of War Franchise for the benefits of such a label.  In actuality, Mass Effect was published by M$, so given the tight finances at EA, it benefits them to keep it that way, and avoid adding more cost to the launching of the game SALES to the launching of the game.

Fixed.

I would also add that considering how well multiplateform title (who said SFIV ?) sell well on the PS3 despise it is restricted userbase, you should have bring your brain  think a bit more before creating a thread ...

and +1 for Procrastinato

"""The PS3's marketshare would have to fall well below half of what the 360's is, in order to justify the shift from PS3 development to 360 development again. Remember it only costs ~%10 of the overall dev cost to port a HD game from one to the other, and you get better results (on both platforms, according to many sources), if you start with the PS3.

I don't think that could happen by the end of the generation -- even if the 360 continues to outsell the PS3 for the entire remainder of the gen.  It has nothing to do with the PS3, and everything to do with both HD platforms combined, ease-of-porting, and the end result -- thanks to the more rigid requirements of the PS3 also happening to yield gains on the 360, when adhered to."""



Time to Work !

"I'm really not sure what's going on with Sony," he said. "They've been such a great, great partner and PlayStation 2 being such a great machine that, God, I hope they get out of this and they figure it out and they're around for a long time."

(bolded part)

He's obviously talking about the possibility that Sony goes bankrupt, which is a real possibility given:

- how long the recession will last (notice it keeps getting longer and longer even according to the most optimistic analysts)
- Sony's finances (high debt, not much cash and currently losing a lot of money)
- Sony's low resistance to recessions

His point is that he hopes Sony can turn the company around into profitability before they run out of cash, which will be very hard for Sony to do.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:

"I'm really not sure what's going on with Sony," he said. "They've been such a great, great partner and PlayStation 2 being such a great machine that, God, I hope they get out of this and they figure it out and they're around for a long time."

(bolded part)

He's obviously talking about the possibility that Sony goes bankrupt, which is a real possibility given:

- how long the recession will last (notice it keeps getting longer and longer even according to the most optimistic analysts)
- Sony's finances (high debt, not much cash and currently losing a lot of money)
- Sony's low resistance to recessions

His point is that he hopes Sony can turn the company around into profitability before they run out of cash, which will be very hard for Sony to do.

 

 

 do you really believe Sony is going bankrupt NJ5 ???

are now they have lost some money but is it really enought tokill them  ???

I dont know why but I have the impression that their situatino is not so bad ...



Time to Work !

libellule said:
NJ5 said:

"I'm really not sure what's going on with Sony," he said. "They've been such a great, great partner and PlayStation 2 being such a great machine that, God, I hope they get out of this and they figure it out and they're around for a long time."

(bolded part)

He's obviously talking about the possibility that Sony goes bankrupt, which is a real possibility given:

- how long the recession will last (notice it keeps getting longer and longer even according to the most optimistic analysts)
- Sony's finances (high debt, not much cash and currently losing a lot of money)
- Sony's low resistance to recessions

His point is that he hopes Sony can turn the company around into profitability before they run out of cash, which will be very hard for Sony to do.

 

 

do you really believe Sony is going bankrupt NJ5 ???

are now they have lost some money but is it really enought tokill them ???

I dont know why but I have the impression that their situatino is not so bad ...

Certainly what they have lost so far is not nearly enough to kill them. They still have more than enough cash to operate, I'd be very surprised if they don't last for at least for another 18 months (also, companies don't immediately die after going bankrupt). That said I'm not sure they'll go bankrupt. It's a real possibility, some analysts have said so and it makes a lot of sense.

Here is how things may play out in the next few months/years. Maybe not all of these things will happen, but some certainly will.

- Sony continues to restructure (which takes time and doesn't cause immediate cash savings, for example every laid off employee gets severance pay)

- Sony's cash reserves start to dwindle, getting closer and closer to the minimum operating level (if you've read articles about GM/Chrysler this expression pops up a lot).

- Sony gets further downgraded by credit ratings agencies, causing some of Sony's creditors to recall their loans. This means Sony needs more cash to pay them off, causing further problems (see AIG for an example).

- A lot of declarations from Sony's execs such as "this recession is very long and very deep, but we're doing what we can blah blah". More restructuring, more layoffs etc.

- Sony tries to sell some assets to other companies, which is made harder by the recession (other companies want to save money too, and aren't looking to expand). They manage to sell some assets, but usually at lower prices than their current value. Still, this buys them some time by increasing their cash reserves.

By the way this is not exclusive to Sony. The things listed above will happen to tons of companies in the near/medium term. Heck it's already happening to many medium companies, and some big ones as well.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

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Deneidez said:
heruamon said:

I posted one of them in my OP...maybe some posters with serious gaming programming will be able to validate this, but game have a long development cycle of years, and iin reading the link I posted, my udnerstanding is that EA had planned to start shifting more on games moving forward in 2008.  Now, did that happen...dunno...and based on some how strong 360 is preforming...maybe not.  At least not on everything, since it's a matter of allocation of resources, since the guys doing the PC games can probably do the 360 port with little problem...but ps3 has different methodologies, and so that means you need more developers verse in that to allow parallel development.  I might be wrong in this, since I'm not much of a programmer, but I'm prretty darn good at project mgmt, if I say so myself...lol...finite resources with infinite requirements...

The... question... was... what? :o

Well, as I have said before. I would love to play around with PS3(or more like CELL), but I wouldn't want to make anything bigger for it(not that I don't have skills ;) ). Its not that easy to port PC games for X360. X360 just can't do some things(Not even some things that original Xbox can do.).

PS3 as lead system for future games at ES.



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

EA exec crosses fingers for Sony's future

Having the most expensive console on the market by a distance during a global recession is unlikely to have featured in Sony's original PlayStation 3 masterplan. But that is where the company finds itself today, and declining hardware sales, contrasting with rivals' fortunes, have increased pressure on the Japanese firm.

But rumours of an imminent price cut are circling, which, if correct, would be music to the ears of retailers and publishing partners. Not least Electronic Arts, one of many firms to have invested heavily in the future success of the platform.

Speaking to GamesIndustry.biz, Redwood Shores general manager Glen Schofield revealed his fears over the positioning of the console in the market, agreeing that the pricepoint placed PS3 as a luxury item in difficult economic times.

"I'm really not sure what's going on with Sony," he said. "They've been such a great, great partner and PlayStation 2 being such a great machine that, God, I hope they get out of this and they figure it out and they're around for a long time."

He refused outright to call for a price cut, stating: "You know, I can't tell them what to do. I don't know their finances." But Schofield added that it was good for health of the whole industry to have three successful home consoles in the market. "I love having the three major machines like that."

Redwood Shores' most recently released Dead Space to critical acclaim. The next title from the studio will be Dante's Inferno.

 

--------------------------------------------

So in other words, he really hopes that sony manages their issues with the high price and he thinks it's great that there are 3 consoles that are doing well this generation unlike any previous.

What's the problem ?



Check out my game about moles ^

libellule said:
heruamon said:

Well, while it's not the push of a panic button, but you've gotta wonder what he means by this statement?  Some would have you believe that all is swell is PS3 land, it's interesting what EA's concern in approaching development on the PS3. 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-exec-crosses-fingers-for-sonys-future

I know in the past, EA has stated that PS3 would be the lead console:

http://gamer.blorge.com/2008/08/04/ea-focus-on-ps3-as-lead-platform-for-game-development/

But this was all based on EA's perception that PS3 would start to dominate the 360, and eventually the Wii:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/ea-expects-ps3-to-outsell-360-in-2008

Well...the 360 got a timely price cut to boost the heck out of the holiday season, but it also received a slew of content that really helped to push consoles.  With that said, the console was still on track to top EA's estimates, and 2008 probably provided M$ with a big stick to bash a weakened EA over the head, for publicly making those estimates in early 2008.  Looking at some franchises like Mass Effect...if I was M$, I'd play hardball like hell with EA to keep it exclusive for as long as possible.  No exclusive, not “privileged status” at launched…see Gears of War Franchise for the benefits of such a label.  In actuality, Mass Effect was published by M$, so given the tight finances at EA, it benefits them to keep it that way, and avoid adding more cost to the launching of the game SALES to the launching of the game.

Fixed.

I would also add that considering how well multiplateform title (who said SFIV ?) sell well on the PS3 despise it is restricted userbase, you should have bring your brain  think a bit more before creating a thread ...

and +1 for Procrastinato

"""The PS3's marketshare would have to fall well below half of what the 360's is, in order to justify the shift from PS3 development to 360 development again. Remember it only costs ~%10 of the overall dev cost to port a HD game from one to the other, and you get better results (on both platforms, according to many sources), if you start with the PS3.

I don't think that could happen by the end of the generation -- even if the 360 continues to outsell the PS3 for the entire remainder of the gen.  It has nothing to do with the PS3, and everything to do with both HD platforms combined, ease-of-porting, and the end result -- thanks to the more rigid requirements of the PS3 also happening to yield gains on the 360, when adhered to."""

Errr....I'm not following your correction to my OP.

 



"...You can't kill ideas with a sword, and you can't sink belief structures with a broadside. You defeat them by making them change..."

- From By Schism Rent Asunder

Procrastinato said:

Now go all out, and design your engine to be parallel from scratch (remember some of core 2 is used by the OS):

Well, mine does work in parallel. It will even use GPU to help CPU in some calculations(Which you did forget btw. ;)). Otherwise excellent example. I see beer does have magical powers after all.



am i the only one who want's to ask this schofield where his brother is ?

or have i been watching too much prison break ?



Check out my game about moles ^