Cactus said: supermario128 said: Maybe because you made it...   True, but what compelled me to make it?   Boredom? Satanic powers? Phychosis?   Are we really here, or figments of the imagination of a higher power? Did the brainwaves of this higher power decide eons ago that I would make this thread? If so, why?

youre experincing the human condition, essentially youve reached a level of boredom where youre brain has decided to try and identify the nature of youre existence, as your brain cannot possibly hope to ever rationalise youre existence it has instead inspired you to do something else, in your case create this thread, in my case its _____________! dont think you need to know the missing word till 2015 or so

Actually, in the original form I envisioned the statement, I did not use the word "chaos". I only added it once I realized what the statement was describing.

As for why the statement looks so awkward, it is because it is the only way to declare a universal rule that has one exception. In other words, it is a self contradiction to state that everything is uncertain, just like it would be to say all generalizations are bad (or whatever). The way I phrased it actually eliminates this by declaring the statement as the one exception. I realized the reason for the contradiction - in some twisted way, the realization that all things are and forever will be fundamentally uncertain produces its own "certainty" in that fact. The resulting phrasing sounds quite awkward, but it's the only way to approach the issue without thoughtlessly dismissing it as a logical impossibility.

I considered calling it the Law of Chaos but it sounded too pretentious and only added to the confusion, so just put chaos there. My understanding is that chaos is not a polar opposite of order but a creator of it - through shaky, uncertain, chaotic assumptions we can create an illusion of order.

I don't have any reason to post here other than the fact that it will probably be locked, and I want to post before that happens.

This thread exists because Crono and the others saved the world from being completely destroyed in 1999 by Lavos, thus allowing you to create your thread.

There, was that an answer or what?!

Yeah, I figured that was it, but the fact remains it's self-contradictory as stated.

It's kind of fun to cast into question absolutely everything in the universe (including the universe, as such) except perhaps for old cogito ergo sum; but personally speaking it gets old pretty fast.

But as for chaos, what I was trying to playfully imply was that chaos by its nature isn't conducive to things being "definite". Complex structues evolve and are torn down, etc.

Haha, I remember that video... it's a shame AoA doesn't post anymore... They must have finally got him! Oh noez!

Thats cool. I guess

see u dont need a point to be entertaining...

In fact I think thats the internet modo.

Pragmatically, it doesn't seem to hold much purpose to prove that everything is inherently chaotic, no. In fact, without the basic assumptions that founded our ways of thought (postulates for mathematics, scientific method/belief in continuation of patterns for science), we could not possibly make progress in those areas. However, realizing that order is merely an illusion has allowed for me to empathise with any idea imagineable, simply because I do not feel the compulsion to dismiss ideas that arises when I believe certain facts are irrefutable. The great thing about my signature is that the only way to prove it wrong is to know there is certainty, and therefore there is no need to prove it (due to the nature of certainty).

In other words, when my signature is wrong, we'll all know it's wrong without the need for discussion. So until then....

To get back on topic, this thread actually does not exist in the traditional sense of existence. Everything that happens "here" is merely the expression of the unrealized alternate scenario where the atmosphere in fact did not catch fire from the Los Alamos atomic bomb test. It's accepted fact on Mars that the stupid humans burnt themselves up before getting anything significant done. However, this alternate scenario is in fact flawed because in it the Martians do not exist. That the crazy drunk aspiring Martian writer would think this story would garner popularity was ridiculous, since Martians obviously do not want to be told that they are not the dominant force in the solar system (when in fact they are).

Hey, it is a possibility! Although simply redefining existence could solve the problem (though in that case the term could include imagined objects and versions of reality twisted by human thought in its definition of existence).

God I write too much (though I don't post much here).

I presume this Martian-imagined alternate history takes place itself in an alternate history with Martians in it? Wheels within wheels...

In other words, when my signature is wrong, we'll all know it's wrong without the need for discussion. So until then....

More seriously, I disagree with this. It assumes that the certainty cannot be arrived at by deduction/debate, and seems to me to assume we will all see the same evidence and draw the same conclusions. One would not have to prove the certainty to oneself (obviously, as you said), but proof would still be formulated to show how the truth was arrived at, both for completeness' sake and to convince others.

But since the view you hold empowers you to evaluate ideas without prejudice, more power to you.

On another note, what do you mean by "order is merely an illusion"? I don't see how you could draw the conclusion that order is any more illusory than chaos, any more than light being an illusion and darkness, not.

One could say that order is transitory as entropy will eventually grind everything down, but on the other hand isn't it equally valid to consider a dead, static universe perfectly orderly?