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Forums - General - Eric Holder (New Attorney General) Calls Waterboarding Torture

Already some fairly big departures from the former adminstration.  Portends well on whether or not Obama will reign in the monster that has become executive authority.  I am glad to see that Holder isn't dodging this question, as some expected he would.  His predecessor Attorney General dodged the question like a prizefighter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/us/politics/16holdercnd.html?_r=2&hp

Holder Tells Senators Waterboarding Is Torture

Damon Winter/The New York Times

Eric Holder Jr., President-elect Barack Obama's choice for Attorney General, at his confirmation hearing on Thursday.

Published: January 15, 2009

WASHINGTON — Pledging to run an independent Justice Department free of political taint, Eric H. Holder Jr. said on Thursday that he believes unequivocally that “waterboarding” is torture, and that it must not be practiced by the United States regardless of the circumstances.

The question of waterboarding was the first issue to be raised at the Senate Judiciary Committee’s confirmation hearings of Mr. Holder for attorney general. As expected, he also came under close questioning over his role as deputy attorney general in the pardoning of Marc Rich, a billionaire who had fled the country rather than face federal tax evasion charges, at the end of President Bill Clinton’s second term.

Addressing the subject of torture at the military prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, Mr. Holder told Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, the committee chairman, “Waterboarding is torture.” It was so defined under the Spanish Inquisition and when used by the Japanese in World War II, he said, and it remains so today.

President-elect Barack Obama has vowed to close the prison, a goal Mr. Holder said he shared. “There are possibly many other people who are not going to be able to be tried but who nevertheless are dangerous to this country,” he said. “We’re going to have to try to figure out what to do with them.”

Asked whether a president might have the power to immunize people against criminal charges if they employ waterboarding, which creates a drowning-like sensation, to obtain intelligence to use against terrorists, Mr. Holder answered unambiguously: “Mr. Chairman, no one is above the law.”

It was clear that the answer was just what Mr. Leahy wanted to hear. The senator has been a harsh critic of the Bush administration, which has defended such harsh interrogation techniques as sometimes essential, and he has expressed public annoyance over the seeming reluctance of Attorney General Michael Mukasey and his predecessor, Alberto R. Gonzales, to renounce waterboarding.

Mr. Holder conceded that President Bush and his top aides had to make difficult decisions. “It is an easy thing for somebody to look back in hindsight and be critical,” he said. “Having said that, the president-elect and I are both disturbed by what we have seen and what we have heard.”

Mr. Holder encountered a bumpy reception over his bungled role in the pardoning of Mr. Rich. He called the controversy “the most intense, most searing experience I’ve ever had as a lawyer,” but one that would make him a better attorney general.

“I made mistakes,” he told the committee, which will vote on his nomination. “I’ve accepted the responsibility for those mistakes.”

But Mr. Holder maintained that the entire episode, in which he said he was not the “careful, thoughtful lawyer” he typically is, will make him an even stronger Justice Department head “as perverse as this might sound.”

Mr. Holder promised to be an attorney general for all Americans if his nomination is confirmed by the full Senate. “The Department of Justice first and foremost represents the people of the United States — not any one president, not any one party,” he said.

“The Justice Department must also defend the civil rights of every American,” Mr. Holder said. “Improper political hiring has undermined this important mission. That must change.” Critics of the Bush Administration have often charged that the department became partisan and politicized under Mr. Gonzales.

Mr. Holder came under the sharpest questioning from the ranking Republican on the committee, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, over his role in the case of Mr. Rich. “Given the background of this man,” Mr. Specter said, “it’s a little hard for me to see how you came to the conclusion you did.”

On the eve of the pardon, Mr. Holder told the White House he was “neutral, leaning toward” favorable on the matter, a conclusion that helped ensure that Mr. Clinton signed the pardon despite objections.

Senator Specter called Mr. Rich a man with “a reprehensible record,” an apparent allusion to reports from American intelligence officials that Mr. Rich’s oil-and-commodities company had done business with Iran, Iraq and other troublesome states.

Although President Clinton’s constitutional power to grant Mr. Rich a pardon was unquestioned, it seemed clear after the fact that Mr. Holder, who was then deputy attorney general, involved himself in Justice Department discussions beforehand without a full briefing from his own prosecutors about the facts of the case. The Rich pardon affair was investigated in 2001 by Congress and a grand jury amid a public clamor because Mr. Rich’s former wife had donated generously to Mr. Clinton’s presidential library and to Democratic causes.

“Given your experience and background,” Mr. Specter pressed Mr. Holder, how could he possibly have recommended a pardon for Mr. Rich?

“I don’t mean to minimize what I did,” replied Mr. Holder, who is about to turn 58 and has years of experience as a prosecutor and a federal judge.

Despite the questions concerning the Rich pardon, no one has suggested that Mr. Holder is in danger of being rejected by the Senate. He was introduced by retired Senator John Warner of Virginia, a Republican who said Mr. Holder had a sterling reputation, both professionally and personally, among people of various political persuasions.

If confirmed, Mr. Holder would be the first black attorney general. Noting that Thursday is the 80th anniversary of the birth of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mr. Holder said, “I feel privileged just to stand in his shadow.”



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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Isn't he the guy that arranged that 500k bribe to get Clinton to pardon some guy on the FBI's most wanted list guy? Wanted for tax evasion and dealing with Iran during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. Was on the lam in Switzerland until his wife made a big 500k contribution to the Clinton library.

All we need is another corrupt Chicago politician running the justice department.



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Well. I agree although I have never been waterboarded. Christopher Hitchen's who is a very hawkish lefty, said Wateboarding isn't torture. He got waterboarded for Vanity Fair and then said "If Waterboarding isn't torture, then there is no torture"- Which really is interesting because it was a total reversal and he supports the administration in almost everything but the patriot act.



Tyrannical said:
Isn't he the guy that arranged that 500k bribe to get Clinton to pardon some guy on the FBI's most wanted list guy? Wanted for tax evasion and dealing with Iran during the hostage crisis in the late 70's. Was on the lam in Switzerland until his wife made a big 500k contribution to the Clinton library.

All we need is another corrupt Chicago politician running the justice department.

That's addressed in the article if you would actually read it...and he admitted he was wrong on numerous occasions and that he would have done it differently now.  That's 100x better than people in the Justice Department currently who abused their positions of authority and could care less that they violated the Constitution on numerous occasions.

There is a difference between making mistakes and admitting you made them and expressing regret for those mistakes compared to making mistakes and having no remorse for doing so.

Pretty much everyone in a position of authority has done something wrong at sometime or another.  The difference is that some people simply don't care whereas others regret abusing/mishandling that authority.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

Wrong thread.  Don't know how that happened.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

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and he admitted he was wrong on numerous occasions and that he would have done it differently now.

He shouldn't be confirmed as the attorney general. Soliciting bribes for pardons is just as bad as what his fellow Chicago democrat Govenor did, attempt to sell a Senate seat.

Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

If waterboard isn't torture, what is?



Galaki said:
If waterboard isn't torture, what is?

 

The rack, flogging, iron maiden, thumb screws etc.

Plenty more examples here.

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/misc/torture/index.html

 



Yet, today, America's leaders are reenacting every folly that brought these great powers [Russia, Germany, and Japan] to ruin -- from arrogance and hubris, to assertions of global hegemony, to imperial overstretch, to trumpeting new 'crusades,' to handing out war guarantees to regions and countries where Americans have never fought before. We are piling up the kind of commitments that produced the greatest disasters of the twentieth century.
 — Pat Buchanan – A Republic, Not an Empire

Tyrannical said:
and he admitted he was wrong on numerous occasions and that he would have done it differently now.

He shouldn't be confirmed as the attorney general. Soliciting bribes for pardons is just as bad as what his fellow Chicago democrat Govenor did, attempt to sell a Senate seat.

Now you are just making things up.  Show me any evidence whatsoever that Holder ever solicited bribes for pardons.

Not to mention that but you DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT STATE HOLDER IS FROMHe NEVER worked in Chicago.  He spent the majority of his career outside of Washington in Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Holder

You are just flat out lying.  Its pathetic.  If you are at least going to criticize someone don't just flat out lie to people's face.  You have just proved that you have nothing relevant to add to this discussion since you are being flat out dishonest.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

@Tyrannical, yes those are torture. Those pretty much always ended in death, like being drawn and quartered but I think everyone in congress should get waterboarded and then they can decide.