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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
A. Evidence plz. If there are Jewish terrorists as bad as Muslim ones, how come we don't see Jewish kids on Internet videos with weapons and doing crazy propaganda like we do Palestinians?
Irony rears its head
Only if he gives me a news article about 5-year-old Jewish terrorist kids and I reject it as merely secondhand (therefore worthless) evidence.
Wrong, he gave you second hand evidence and you refused to accept it, because it wasn't enough ,same thing i'm asking of you, your so called evidence is nothing at all and when I ask for more you say it is unreasonable

Wrong -- I'm concerned about the impartiality of him and his source, and also am concerned that the passage in question is not plausible given known facts.  Unless you have similar concerns about the Roman historians and reports?

 

 I have concerns about the accuracy of their writings, not about impartiality, but rather whether what they wrote was accurate or not, but like you I need something to substantiate



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kasz216 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Not so KasZ, what you are stating is that there are many who accept the theory that he exists but theory isn't necessarily fact
Just like evolution?
Find me a credible expert who disbeleives in the evolution of man.
Then i'll believe there is a credible expert who disbelieves in the existence of jesus.
The problem is your definition of a "certantity" is untenable.
There is no reasonable reason to believe jesus did not exist.
I mean, i may as well claim there is no proof anyone exists.
Evolution is different, you can see the evidence in the fossil record, the genetics, and even some species and how they adapt

You have not shown me any bones, any records, or even first hand accounts of christ, nothing that supports his existence outside of second hand writings
Oh?  You have first hand bones of humans evolving from apes?  I thought it was called "The missing link" for a reason.
You also have genetic evidence of our relationship to apes, in addition you can see other species, like finches and insects adapting to environmental changes
[...]
How does DNA prove anything?
We share 50% of our DNA with Bannannas.
All that proves is we are more like Monkeys then we are Bannannas.
DNA is a "Second hand" source of pure conjecture and you've yet to show any first hand proof people have evolved from anything.
In fact we only have first hand proof of evolution in bacteria.  There is no first hand proof at all of anything past microscopic size evolving.
I mean... have you ever seen something written by someone who saw something evolve?
I haven't.
Pretty suspisious.
Ah but the question was whether evolution exists, as you yourself argue we've seen it first hand in bacteria, so then we can add in what you call the "second hand" stuff since there is something to support it.  We've seen things evolve at the cellular level and we've seen evidence that infers evolution at the multicellular level.

With Christ we only have the stuff that is second hand, nothing first hand to support it, plus the second hand stuff isn't as scientifiaclly rigorous as the fossil evidence and genetics in evolution
No, actually he said "the evolution of man", so bacteria aren't good enough.  Nor worms, which I can cite a document for.
Wrong again, his first comment was evolution, then he asked about man, like I said, once you have the evidence for the lesser organisms, then you have some support for what you guys are referring to as "second hand" the fossil evidence and genetics

You're just blowing smoke in a pathetic attempt at misdirection.  The second sentence of that post clearly was intended to clarify the parameters of the general question.  I'll leave the rest of your post to Kasz.



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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008

You're just blowing smoke in a pathetic attempt at misdirection. The second sentence of that post clearly was intended to clarify the parameters of the general question. I'll leave the rest of your post to Kasz.


Noattempt at blowing smoke, I ansswered his question he said what about evolution? And then he talked about man, so I answered it in order, first he gave support for evolution at the cellular level then I stated how that lends some support to evolution at the multicellular level with the help of the genetic and fossil records, you just don't like that i'm right and you are wrong.  Plainly the evidence for evolution is much stronger than for Christ, far stronger.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Your unreasoning hatred of second-hand sources is probably the biggest stumbling block here. One must be careful whom to trust when getting information, since some (like yourself in your example) would be obviously pushing an agenda. But others (the early Roman sources) would be pretty neutral and it's merely a question of how much THEY could be trusted to have investigated what they are reporting.

There isn't just, like, one source of a madman's scribblings. There are several sources, including authors who are known to be pretty credible historians.

As for whether or not the Jesus-never-existed theory is a fringe belief characterizable as x<1% of serious historians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_hypothesis
Graham N. Stanton writes, "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed and that the gospels contain plenty of valuable evidence which has to be weighed and assessed critically. There is general agreement that, with the possible exception of Paul, we know far more about Jesus of Nazareth than about any first- or second century Jewish or pagan religious teacher."

Even those who favor the theory agree that the vast majority of historians don't find the didn't-exist theory plausible. "Van Voorst is quite right in saying that 'mainstream scholarship today finds it unimportant.' Most of their comments ... are limited to expressions of contempt."

For an example of those comments that go a little deeper than mere contempt, try this:
http://www.bede.org.uk/price8.htm
Who said anything about hatred of second hand evidence, I just said it wasn't enough. 
Also
But, Doherty disagrees with the mainstream scholars on the strength of the case against the hypothesis, and comments that "contempt is not to be mistaken for refutation".He states that "interests, both religious and secular, have traditionally mounted a campaign against it,"[99] and states that mainstream scholarship is guilty of a "notable lack of proper understanding of the mythicist case,"[100] leading to "the non-professional scholar" and "well-informed amateur on the internet" becoming those whom he regards as "quite educated (meaning largely self-educated) in biblical research."[100] "There are those, scholars and laypeople alike, who regularly assume that something ‘big’ and unique, some powerful figure, had to be responsible for the Christian movement. But if one has consistently misread that movement, failed to recognize its antecedents, the steps of its development, imposed preconceptions upon it, they will be forever forced to make the same erroneous assumption, and alternatives will not commend themselves." [100]

He's right, contempt for the theory is one thing, but contempt doesn't mean they have refuted it, or that they can even prove it wrong, only that they don't like it.
Ummm ... thus my final paragraph, which links to an overview of the refutations.  Weren't you paying attention?
Yeah I did, and I have glanced over that site before, and I find its arguments to be as weak as yours

In that case, I wonder why you acted like there have been no such refutations.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:

In that case, I wonder why you acted like there have been no such refutations.

 

 Where did I say there were no attempts at refutations?  I said there was no evidence to support the refutations but clearly there are attempts at refutaions, you have been giving one in this thread, unsupported, but its there.  The attempts at refutations however hae not refuted the theory, have not proved it wrong



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
A. Evidence plz. If there are Jewish terrorists as bad as Muslim ones, how come we don't see Jewish kids on Internet videos with weapons and doing crazy propaganda like we do Palestinians?
Irony rears its head
Only if he gives me a news article about 5-year-old Jewish terrorist kids and I reject it as merely secondhand (therefore worthless) evidence.
Wrong, he gave you second hand evidence and you refused to accept it, because it wasn't enough ,same thing i'm asking of you, your so called evidence is nothing at all and when I ask for more you say it is unreasonable
Wrong -- I'm concerned about the impartiality of him and his source, and also am concerned that the passage in question is not plausible given known facts.  Unless you have similar concerns about the Roman historians and reports?
I have concerns about the accuracy of their writings, not about impartiality, but rather whether what they wrote was accurate or not, but like you I need something to substantiate

Okay, but if the author is impartial, and known to be a fairly good historian, and the report is completely consistent with known facts, then why doubt its accuracy?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
A. Evidence plz. If there are Jewish terrorists as bad as Muslim ones, how come we don't see Jewish kids on Internet videos with weapons and doing crazy propaganda like we do Palestinians?
Irony rears its head
Only if he gives me a news article about 5-year-old Jewish terrorist kids and I reject it as merely secondhand (therefore worthless) evidence.
Wrong, he gave you second hand evidence and you refused to accept it, because it wasn't enough ,same thing i'm asking of you, your so called evidence is nothing at all and when I ask for more you say it is unreasonable
Wrong -- I'm concerned about the impartiality of him and his source, and also am concerned that the passage in question is not plausible given known facts.  Unless you have similar concerns about the Roman historians and reports?
I have concerns about the accuracy of their writings, not about impartiality, but rather whether what they wrote was accurate or not, but like you I need something to substantiate

Okay, but if the author is impartial, and known to be a fairly good historian, and the report is completely consistent with known facts, then why doubt its accuracy?

 

 What known facts?  You haven't shown any facts, just writings, and said that there were oral stories, whose to say that he wasn't going off these oral stories and as such his sources may or may not have been wrong, not to mention he wrote almost 2000 years ago, hence why would I accept it at face value, unless something exists to support it



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:

You're just blowing smoke in a pathetic attempt at misdirection. The second sentence of that post clearly was intended to clarify the parameters of the general question. I'll leave the rest of your post to Kasz.


Noattempt at blowing smoke, I ansswered his question he said what about evolution? And then he talked about man, so I answered it in order, first he gave support for evolution at the cellular level then I stated how that lends some support to evolution at the multicellular level with the help of the genetic and fossil records, you just don't like that i'm right and you are wrong.  Plainly the evidence for evolution is much stronger than for Christ, far stronger.

The first time evolution is mentioned in this thread is here: 

"Just like evolution?
"Find me a credible expert who disbeleives in the evolution of man."

If you somehow failed to comprehend from the outset that the demand was specifically for HUMAN evolution and not evolution in general, that is no-one's fault but your own.  Kasz did not "move the goalposts".  But I will agree about evolution being much better supported the the historical existence of Jesus. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Avinash_Tyagi on 31 December 2008
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:

You're just blowing smoke in a pathetic attempt at misdirection. The second sentence of that post clearly was intended to clarify the parameters of the general question. I'll leave the rest of your post to Kasz.


Noattempt at blowing smoke, I ansswered his question he said what about evolution? And then he talked about man, so I answered it in order, first he gave support for evolution at the cellular level then I stated how that lends some support to evolution at the multicellular level with the help of the genetic and fossil records, you just don't like that i'm right and you are wrong.  Plainly the evidence for evolution is much stronger than for Christ, far stronger.

The first time evolution is mentioned in this thread is here: 

"Just like evolution?
"Find me a credible expert who disbeleives in the evolution of man."

If you somehow failed to comprehend from the outset that the demand was specifically for HUMAN evolution and not evolution in general, that is no-one's fault but your own.  Kasz did not "move the goalposts".  But I will agree about evolution being much better supported the the historical existence of Jesus.

 

 I never accused him of moving the goalposts, but I saw it as two seperate questions, one on evolution then on man's evolution, answering the first sets up the support for the second, once you know evolution exists at some level and you have evidence that infers evolution at another level you can combine the two to creat a reasonable support for the theory



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Final-Fan on 31 December 2008
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Final-Fan said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
A. Evidence plz. If there are Jewish terrorists as bad as Muslim ones, how come we don't see Jewish kids on Internet videos with weapons and doing crazy propaganda like we do Palestinians?
Irony rears its head
Only if he gives me a news article about 5-year-old Jewish terrorist kids and I reject it as merely secondhand (therefore worthless) evidence.
Wrong, he gave you second hand evidence and you refused to accept it, because it wasn't enough ,same thing i'm asking of you, your so called evidence is nothing at all and when I ask for more you say it is unreasonable
Wrong -- I'm concerned about the impartiality of him and his source, and also am concerned that the passage in question is not plausible given known facts.  Unless you have similar concerns about the Roman historians and reports?
I have concerns about the accuracy of their writings, not about impartiality, but rather whether what they wrote was accurate or not, but like you I need something to substantiate
Okay, but if the author is impartial, and known to be a fairly good historian, and the report is completely consistent with known facts, then why doubt its accuracy?
What known facts?  You haven't shown any facts, just writings, and said that there were oral stories, whose to say that he wasn't going off these oral stories and as such his sources may or may not have been wrong, not to mention he wrote almost 2000 years ago, hence why would I accept it at face value, unless something exists to support it

... facepalm

No, I mean the facts like the start of Christianity, and what we KNOW about the earliest part of its existence.  Even if it doesn't PROVE anything about Jesus it's all CONSISTENT with the possibility that he did in fact exist.  Or if not, what part of history is incompatible with Jesus existing?  That would be a quick way for you to win this debate.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!