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Forums - General - Legalizing marijuana

bardicverse on 10 November 2008
akuma587 said:
We should legalize shrooms too, mescalin, and peyote, and any other natural hallucinogen. There is as much scientific evidence out there that these drugs are less dangerous than alcohol as there is that marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol.

They are all:

1) Non-toxic
2) Non-addictive
3) Do not encourage anti-social behavior (or at least don't encourage it to any degree more than alcohol does)

They do have psychological side effects, but so does watching a really scary movie or going to a haunted house. Alcohol is really one of the most dangerous drugs out there, people just think its OK because they've always been told it is OK.

God Akuma. Sometimes you make me really want to give Texas back to Mexico ;)

 



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Jackson50 on 10 November 2008

I fail to see how ending drug prohibition will increase the number of burnouts. Is that not the problem we already have? If people want to use and abuse drugs, they are going to use and abuse drugs. I would implore you to watch the video I previously posted.



akuma587 on 10 November 2008

So what if a person decides to sit at home and eat all day and becomes fat and the government has to take care of them. Should we make fatty foods illegal?



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 on 10 November 2008
bardicverse said:
akuma587 said:
We should legalize shrooms too, mescalin, and peyote, and any other natural hallucinogen. There is as much scientific evidence out there that these drugs are less dangerous than alcohol as there is that marijuana is less dangerous than alcohol.

They are all:

1) Non-toxic
2) Non-addictive
3) Do not encourage anti-social behavior (or at least don't encourage it to any degree more than alcohol does)

They do have psychological side effects, but so does watching a really scary movie or going to a haunted house. Alcohol is really one of the most dangerous drugs out there, people just think its OK because they've always been told it is OK.

God Akuma. Sometimes you make me really want to give Texas back to Mexico ;)

 

Why, because I actually know about psychopharmacology and the objective dangers of drugs based on physicological and sociological studies done on those drugs?  Apparently learning about a subject and looking at a situation objectively makes me a lunatic.  Go study the chemistry of these drugs and you will learn that alcohol is as bad as most of the worst ones.

Here is a great study done on most of the major drugs by a British Medical Journal that includes a ranking of those drugs in terms of their aggregate physiological and sociological dangers.  What evidence do you have to support your claims?  Your anecdotes of some burn-outs you met in your hometown?  How quaint.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17760130/

Most dangerous drugs

Research recently published in the medical journal The Lancet rates the most dangerous drugs (starting with the worst) as follows:

1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Barbiturates
4. Street methadone
5. Alcohol
6. Ketamine
7. Benzodiazepines
8. Amphetamine
9. Tobacco
10. Buprenorphine
11. Cannabis
12. Solvents
13. 4-MTA
14. LSD
15. Methylphenidate
16. Anabolic steroids
17. GHB
18. Ecstasy
19. Alkyl nitrates
20. Khat

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

bardicverse on 10 November 2008
akuma587 said:

.  What evidence do you have to support your claims?  Your anecdotes of some burn-outs you met in your hometown?  

 

 

Since I already answered this in a previous post, but you failed or didnt care to read it, then I guess I should follow suit and just make replies without reading your post either?

 



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Moongoddess256 on 10 November 2008
bardicverse said:
Moongoddess256 said:

 

and bardic... if people want to be burnouts let them. Jeez. Its not like they are stealing to support their horrible addiction. At worst they sit around and do nothing. And if they are content sitting around doing nothing, who are you to decide that they can't do that?

 

Oh thats simple to answer. See, when people become burnouts, they fail to be productive. If they are big enough burnouts, they end up losing their jobs, and then they go on welfare programs all sorts of fun stuff, and guess how those programs are funded? By the taxes of productive people, the working class. So at the end of the discussion, people being burnouts and useless in society and the world directly comes into play. Maybe we should just stop offering welfare and rehab, and let them happily rot away and die unnoticed? Is that a better option?

 

 

Not all of us consider becoming another productive cog in our society a good thing (thats achieving about as much as doing nothing at all). And yes I know thats not actually adressing your point, I just felt the need to point that out to you. Marijuana does not necessarilly create underachievers. I'm pretty sure becoming jaded and disillusioned are the lead causes of that (I would know). Also, do I need to point out that the greatest achievers in the arts use copious amounts of drugs like marijuana shrooms and lsd?

 

Keep in mind theres more than one type of people that use these drugs, don't condemn the drugs because one of those types of people don't know how to exercise moderation.



[2:08:58 am] Moongoddess256: being asian makes you naturally good at ddr
[2:09:22 am] gnizmo: its a weird genetic thing
[2:09:30 am] gnizmo: goes back to hunting giant crabs in feudal Japan

bardicverse on 10 November 2008
Jackson50 said:
I fail to see how ending drug prohibition will increase the number of burnouts. Is that not the problem we already have? If people want to use and abuse drugs, they are going to use and abuse drugs. I would implore you to watch the video I previously posted.

Humor me a moment and entertain this hypothetical theory: What if drugs were not available. Not around anywhere? Would people desperately go out of their way to find them? Let's say that drug dealers were made as "kill on sight" targets for police, and wiped out all the dealers and terrified people to even take such a risk. How far would you go to find a place to buy weed, shroom,s coke, etc? Would it be worth traveling for hours just to get a stack of goods of questionable quality? Or would you just save up your money and take a trip to someplace like Amsterdam, get your freak on, and then come home satisfied?

Legalization promotes availability. Availability promotes advertising, and advertising brings customers. For as many people who know how to find drugs, how many people are out there that might be willing or curious to try drugs, but just didn't want to go to a shady back alley to buy them, or more simply - didn't even know where or how to go about getting them? If its legal, it can be peddled even out of a store.

But I will entertain your thought on legalization. What age do you make the legal age of purchase/use? 21 like alcohol? or 18 like tobacco?

As I discuss it more, I tend to think that maybe full, outright legalization is actually a great solution, for ALL drugs, no matter how dangerous/lethal. Leave it readily accessible to teenagers, and let them have a blast. A good chunk might die, but it will thin out the population. Survival of the fittest/smartest. Makes sense to me. Hmm, you've actually opened my eyes on the matter on a whole new direction - not drugs as the bane of society, but as a filter for humanity. We could thin out the kids who had bad parenting, the easily impressionable, the followers. Hmmm...thats not such a bad idea at all.

 

 



akuma587 on 10 November 2008
bardicverse said:
akuma587 said:

.  What evidence do you have to support your claims?  Your anecdotes of some burn-outs you met in your hometown?  

 

 

Since I already answered this in a previous post, but you failed or didnt care to read it, then I guess I should follow suit and just make replies without reading your post either?

 

Its cool, I don't have anything personal against you, and your post before your response to mine was pretty well thought out. 

But why should the government be everyone's nanny?  I mean isn't making certain drugs illegal treating people like they can't make their own decisions for themselves?  And believe me, its not like the market for hallucinogens is that big in the first place.  Stuff like salvia is legal and will get you ripped out of your mind in terms of the shit you see (and there is evidence that suggests it is actually the most potent hallucinogen next to DMT), but its not like people are flocking to that drug.  And I can walk down to a head shop tomorrow and buy some completely legally.  People act like just because a drug is legal that people will flock to it, which is not true.

This would be the case for marijuana, but that is because it gives you a "high."  But if that were enough reason to make it illegal then we should make the consumption of alcohol illegal too.

People like drugs that get you high, like weed, cocaine, and heroin.  Hallucinogens (which marijuana is one of but it kind of straddles a few categories) will never be mainstream drugs even among drug users for one reason, there isn't a physical payoff.  Alcohol has a similar chemical high, which is why it is so popular.

But all this leads to one question, why is alcohol legal and marijuana is not?  Alcohol by any objective evaluation is a more dangerous drug. 

And in terms of your argument that marijuana makes cities more dangerous, you are right, it does.  But that is BECAUSE it is illegal.  Imagine how many fewer drug dealers there would be if you could buy marijuana at the 711?  They would all be out of business and only the ones willing to sell the REAL drugs would still be around.  Not to mention the amount of money flowing into the hands of drug lords would be a fraction of what it was before if there was no marijuana market.  The American government by keeping drugs like marijuana illegal is more or less directly funding crime and drug cartels.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

bardicverse on 10 November 2008
akuma587 said:
bardicverse said:
akuma587 said:

.  What evidence do you have to support your claims?  Your anecdotes of some burn-outs you met in your hometown?  

 

 

Since I already answered this in a previous post, but you failed or didnt care to read it, then I guess I should follow suit and just make replies without reading your post either?

 

Its cool, I don't have anything personal against you, and your post before your response to mine was pretty well thought out. 

But why should the government be everyone's nanny?  I mean isn't making certain drugs illegal treating people like they can't make their own decisions for themselves?  And believe me, its not like the market for hallucinogens is that big in the first place.  Stuff like salvia is legal and will get you ripped out of your mind in terms of the shit you see (and there is evidence that suggests it is actually the most potent hallucinogen next to DMT), but its not like people are flocking to that drug.  And I can walk down to a head shop tomorrow and buy some completely legally.  People act like just because a drug is legal that people will flock to it, which is not true.

This would be the case for marijuana, but that is because it gives you a "high."  But if that were enough reason to make it illegal then we should make the consumption of alcohol illegal too.

People like drugs that get you high, like weed, cocaine, and heroin.  Hallucinogens (which marijuana is one of but it kind of straddles a few categories) will never be mainstream drugs even among drug users for one reason, there isn't a physical payoff.  Alcohol has a similar chemical high, which is why it is so popular.

But all this leads to one question, why is alcohol legal and marijuana is not?  Alcohol by any objective evaluation is a more dangerous drug. 

And in terms of your argument that marijuana makes cities more dangerous, you are right, it does.  But that is BECAUSE it is illegal.  Imagine how many fewer drug dealers there would be if you could buy marijuana at the 711?  They would all be out of business and only the ones willing to sell the REAL drugs would still be around.  Not to mention the amount of money flowing into the hands of drug lords would be a fraction of what it was before if there was no marijuana market.  The American government by keeping drugs like marijuana illegal is more or less directly funding crime and drug cartels.

 

Agreed. If you check the post above yours, I actually found some good use out of what you are suggesting.

 

As for alcohol vs drugs, maybe its a moderation factor? You can have a few beers and be ok, but is there such a thing as a "little bit of coke" and being ok? I don't know. I started drinking at 14, have learned from overdrinking NOT to overdrink anymore, and now only drink socially and stop before I get anything more than a buzz, so I can keep other people in check.

 



Moongoddess256 on 10 November 2008

There is so such thing as smoking a little weed and being ok though.

I'm pretty sure theres almost no one out there trying to legalize cocaine.



[2:08:58 am] Moongoddess256: being asian makes you naturally good at ddr
[2:09:22 am] gnizmo: its a weird genetic thing
[2:09:30 am] gnizmo: goes back to hunting giant crabs in feudal Japan