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Forums - General - PoliCHARTZ - Thread of U.S. Politics & the Presidential Election

fkusumot on 07 November 2008

Don't fuck up this thread too much while I'm gone. Please no more Coulter stuff. And don't try to get around that by posting Bachmann stuff. Happy, happy, joy, joy!


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Final-Fan on 07 November 2008
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
So the next time anyone dies from a DUI repeat offender the situation is "out of control"?

If they really want to put the sqeeze on illegal immigration they would go after all the companies that employ them en masse. They're coming here for jobs.

Yes.  Though the fact that drunk driving is out of control is another story. 

When an Illegal immigrant has been arrested multiple times for problems like that... it is out of control. The fact that it happened once means it's likely there are others in a similar circumstance who have gone unreported.

Also, yeah they should go after the companies as well.  However, that won't get rid of most of the people living here illegally... and without proper deportation would just lead to the illegal immigrants having a higher crime rate then normal people.

And O'Reilly was exploiting a tragedy from the DRUNK DRIVING problem to stir up emotions about the IMMIGRATION problem.  Can we agree on that?

[edit:  And it's true, I should have said "also" go after the companies.  Otherwise it's no use because more will come to fill the jobs.]

I'd say he used the tragedy from an Immigration and drunk driving story to stir up emotions about immigration... and Drunk Driving.

Pretty much every repeat offense by an illegal alien is one that shouldn't of happened because illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country in the first place.

I think that was his point that gets lost in the baiting for geraldo... and it's a true one.

Although the two issues are embodied in this one man, they are in fact two separate issues and combining them is a mistake.

Although I stand by the above, I'd like to amend my main response to something much more direct and simple:  I think you're wrong. 

Neither of us can know exactly what goes through Bill O'Reilly's mind.  And I freely admit that I have barely watched his show.  But how many times has he done segments on drunk driving, and how many has he done on illegal immigration?  I'd be surprised if the answers aren't "very few" and "very many", respectively.  If this is true, I think Geraldo and I are right to be extremely suspicious of his motives given the tone of the segment in question. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Kasz216 on 07 November 2008
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
So the next time anyone dies from a DUI repeat offender the situation is "out of control"?

If they really want to put the sqeeze on illegal immigration they would go after all the companies that employ them en masse. They're coming here for jobs.

Yes.  Though the fact that drunk driving is out of control is another story. 

When an Illegal immigrant has been arrested multiple times for problems like that... it is out of control. The fact that it happened once means it's likely there are others in a similar circumstance who have gone unreported.

Also, yeah they should go after the companies as well.  However, that won't get rid of most of the people living here illegally... and without proper deportation would just lead to the illegal immigrants having a higher crime rate then normal people.

And O'Reilly was exploiting a tragedy from the DRUNK DRIVING problem to stir up emotions about the IMMIGRATION problem.  Can we agree on that?

[edit:  And it's true, I should have said "also" go after the companies.  Otherwise it's no use because more will come to fill the jobs.]

I'd say he used the tragedy from an Immigration and drunk driving story to stir up emotions about immigration... and Drunk Driving.

Pretty much every repeat offense by an illegal alien is one that shouldn't of happened because illegal aliens shouldn't be in the country in the first place.

I think that was his point that gets lost in the baiting for geraldo... and it's a true one.

Although the two issues are embodied in this one man, they are in fact two separate issues and combining them is a mistake.

Although I stand by the above, I'd like to amend my main response to something much more direct and simple:  I think you're wrong. 

Neither of us can know exactly what goes through Bill O'Reilly's mind.  And I freely admit that I have barely watched his show.  But how many times has he done segments on drunk driving, and how many has he done on illegal immigration?  I'd be surprised if the answers aren't "very few" and "very many", respectively.  If this is true, I think Geraldo and I are right to be extremely suspicious of his motives given the tone of the segment in question. 

Oh, i agree it was mostly about immigration...

Though he does have a point.  If illegal aliens would be deported opon being found out... this would of never happened?

How isn't that a valid arguement?

Do you think he's the only Illegal alien convicted of drunken behavior who wasn't deported?  Or some other Illegal alien that performed some crime?

Illegal aliens raise the crime rates... even if they do comit crimes at lower rates then regular people... because if they weren't here they couldn't comit crimes... and they shouldn't be here. 

It seems like an actual logical conclusion for once.



Final-Fan on 08 November 2008
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Although the two issues are embodied in this one man, they are in fact two separate issues and combining them is a mistake.

Although I stand by the above, I'd like to amend my main response to something much more direct and simple:  I think you're wrong. 

Neither of us can know exactly what goes through Bill O'Reilly's mind.  And I freely admit that I have barely watched his show.  But how many times has he done segments on drunk driving, and how many has he done on illegal immigration?  I'd be surprised if the answers aren't "very few" and "very many", respectively.  If this is true, I think Geraldo and I are right to be extremely suspicious of his motives given the tone of the segment in question.
Oh, i agree it was mostly about immigration...

Though he does have a point.  If illegal aliens would be deported opon being found out... this would of never happened?

How isn't that a valid arguement?

Do you think he's the only Illegal alien convicted of drunken behavior who wasn't deported?  Or some other Illegal alien that performed some crime?

Illegal aliens raise the crime rates... even if they do comit crimes at lower rates then regular people... because if they weren't here they couldn't comit crimes... and they shouldn't be here.

It seems like an actual logical conclusion for once.

I thought that crime rate was generally expressed as a ratio of crime to population, not the raw number of crimes, e.g. a city might have a murder rate of 10 per 100,000.  So in that sense any group with a lower crime rate than the overall crime rate would lower the overall crime rate.

That being the case with illegal immigrants, it's not valid to act like illegal immigrants are contributing to some kind of crime wave (other than a wave of illegal immigration) which is the definite undercurrent of O'Reilly's show.  Spending extra effort on going after illegal immigrants doesn't seem to me like a very effective way to go after other types of crime if they are actually less likely to commit those crimes.  Going after illegal immigrants is, however, a very effective way to go after the crime of illegal immigration and I'm not saying otherwise.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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akuma587 on 08 November 2008

A bad economy triggers higher crime rates far more reliably than illegal immigrants do.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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Kasz216 on 08 November 2008
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Although the two issues are embodied in this one man, they are in fact two separate issues and combining them is a mistake.

Although I stand by the above, I'd like to amend my main response to something much more direct and simple:  I think you're wrong. 

Neither of us can know exactly what goes through Bill O'Reilly's mind.  And I freely admit that I have barely watched his show.  But how many times has he done segments on drunk driving, and how many has he done on illegal immigration?  I'd be surprised if the answers aren't "very few" and "very many", respectively.  If this is true, I think Geraldo and I are right to be extremely suspicious of his motives given the tone of the segment in question.
Oh, i agree it was mostly about immigration...

Though he does have a point.  If illegal aliens would be deported opon being found out... this would of never happened?

How isn't that a valid arguement?

Do you think he's the only Illegal alien convicted of drunken behavior who wasn't deported?  Or some other Illegal alien that performed some crime?

Illegal aliens raise the crime rates... even if they do comit crimes at lower rates then regular people... because if they weren't here they couldn't comit crimes... and they shouldn't be here.

It seems like an actual logical conclusion for once.

I thought that crime rate was generally expressed as a ratio of crime to population, not the raw number of crimes, e.g. a city might have a murder rate of 10 per 100,000.  So in that sense any group with a lower crime rate than the overall crime rate would lower the overall crime rate.

That being the case with illegal immigrants, it's not valid to act like illegal immigrants are contributing to some kind of crime wave (other than a wave of illegal immigration) which is the definite undercurrent of O'Reilly's show.  Spending extra effort on going after illegal immigrants doesn't seem to me like a very effective way to go after other types of crime if they are actually less likely to commit those crimes.  Going after illegal immigrants is, however, a very effective way to go after the crime of illegal immigration and I'm not saying otherwise.

A ratio of LEGAL citizens yes. 

Aside from which the raw number would be down... and this is important since immigrants aren't limited to their own populations.  Illegal aliens don't just stay to themselves

I mean what's not easy to get about that?

Every Illegal alien that's here creates an increase in the raw number in crime... and in term increases the risk for legal citizens.  It's a perfectly fine point.

The actual rate is irrelvent... since having a lower crime rate doesn't = less crimes... and if there were less legal illegal immigrants there wouldn't be more legal ones.

I mean think to yourself.  Which would you rather have in your city.  The same crime rate?  Or a higher crime rate... yet less crimes committed?

 



Kasz216 on 08 November 2008
akuma587 said:
A bad economy triggers higher crime rates far more reliably than illegal immigrants do.

Which has to do with...?

The current economic problems would of happened no matter who was in power these 4 years.  We just agreed to that in another thread.

 



Final-Fan on 08 November 2008
Kasz216 said:
(1)A ratio of LEGAL citizens yes.

Aside from which the raw number would be down... and this is important since immigrants aren't limited to their own populations.  Illegal aliens don't just stay to themselves

I mean what's not easy to get about that?

(2) Every Illegal alien that's here creates an increase in the raw number in crime... and in term increases the risk for legal citizens.  It's a perfectly fine point.

The actual rate is irrelvent... since having a lower crime rate doesn't = less crimes... and if there were less legal illegal immigrants there wouldn't be more legal ones.

(3) I mean think to yourself.  Which would you rather have in your city.  The same crime rate?  Or a higher crime rate... yet less crimes committed?

(1) Good point.  But even if the TRUE crime ratio is different from the apparent one, the other point still stands. 

(2) Wrong.  See (3) 

(3) If there's a higher crime rate, then there is a higher probability that any individual person, e.g. me, will be a victim of that crime.  So by that reasoning I would want the lower crime rate.  Of course, my individual probability of being victimized is not a simple function of the crime rate, but my answer makes at least as much sense as your question IMO.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Kasz216 on 08 November 2008
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(1)A ratio of LEGAL citizens yes.

Aside from which the raw number would be down... and this is important since immigrants aren't limited to their own populations.  Illegal aliens don't just stay to themselves

I mean what's not easy to get about that?

(2) Every Illegal alien that's here creates an increase in the raw number in crime... and in term increases the risk for legal citizens.  It's a perfectly fine point.

The actual rate is irrelvent... since having a lower crime rate doesn't = less crimes... and if there were less legal illegal immigrants there wouldn't be more legal ones.

(3) I mean think to yourself.  Which would you rather have in your city.  The same crime rate?  Or a higher crime rate... yet less crimes committed?

(1) Good point.  But even if the TRUE crime ratio is different from the apparent one, the other point still stands. 

(2) Wrong.  See (3) 

(3) If there's a higher crime rate, then there is a higher probability that any individual person, e.g. me, will be a victim of that crime.  So by that reasoning I would want the lower crime rate.  Of course, my individual probability of being victimized is not a simple function of the crime rate, but my answer makes at least as much sense as your question IMO.  

I think your wrong there... because it's not a simple function. 

1) How many people are going to rob poor illegal aliens who have nothing?

2) In targetted crimes.  The vast majority are committed by peole you know.  Illegal aliens are usually fairly segregated from regulars...  IE "I'm going to rob someone".  So your chances of getting hit by a targetted crime aren't likely.

3)  This leaves un targetted crimes.  Drunk Driving, etc... which which would increase your chances... since these are "at the wrong place" type crimes.



Final-Fan on 08 November 2008
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(1)A ratio of LEGAL citizens yes.

Aside from which the raw number would be down... and this is important since immigrants aren't limited to their own populations.  Illegal aliens don't just stay to themselves

I mean what's not easy to get about that?

(2) Every Illegal alien that's here creates an increase in the raw number in crime... and in term increases the risk for legal citizens.  It's a perfectly fine point.

The actual rate is irrelvent... since having a lower crime rate doesn't = less crimes... and if there were less legal illegal immigrants there wouldn't be more legal ones.

(3) I mean think to yourself.  Which would you rather have in your city.  The same crime rate?  Or a higher crime rate... yet less crimes committed?
(1) Good point.  But even if the TRUE crime ratio is different from the apparent one, the other point still stands.

(2) Wrong.  See (3)

(3) If there's a higher crime rate, then there is a higher probability that any individual person, e.g. me, will be a victim of that crime.  So by that reasoning I would want the lower crime rate.  Of course, my individual probability of being victimized is not a simple function of the crime rate, but my answer makes at least as much sense as your question IMO.

I think your wrong there... because it's not a simple function. 

1) How many people are going to rob poor illegal aliens who have nothing?

2) In targetted crimes.  The vast majority are committed by peole you know.  Illegal aliens are usually fairly segregated from regulars...  IE "I'm going to rob someone".  So your chances of getting hit by a targetted crime aren't likely.

3)  This leaves un targetted crimes.  Drunk Driving, etc... which which would increase your chances... since these are "at the wrong place" type crimes.

(1) Do poor people actually get robbed less than not-poor people? 

(2) True

(3) I still don't get why removing a low-crime-rate segment of the population wouldn't result in a greater risk for myself of getting hit by an untargeted crime.  All those illegal immigrants are potential targets as well.  The drunk might hit them!  You're taking away my human shield!  (Unless they are also victimized less by untargeted crimes to the same degree.)

P.S.  I'm treating untargeted crime as a random event hitting individuals of the population.  Obviously in real life it's not TRUE randomness but if I'm grossly wrong please explain why, because that could be at the heart of this difference of opinion.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!