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Forums - General - Obama... Man Were We All Fooled...

Kasz216 said:
Jandre002 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
A sales tax would discourage spending and hurt the economy. People are pretty shortsighted, but they do notice a 30% tax on their goods, so this would encourage people to buy things from abroad if the costs weren't prohibitive because there would be no tax. People would try to get around it on the internet as well, which would be a nightmare for the federal government to patrol since there is so much traffic.

Income tax is something they can't get around easily, and it isn't something people generally think about on a day to day basis. Same with property tax. You would notice the sales tax every time you went and purchased something, so it would shape your habits accordingly.

A flat tax would have to be at least 28-30% to actually work. It really wouldn't provide many advantages to the system we have now, and a society and economy with a progressive income tax is more stable.


The argument isn't that it will have any advantage.  It's that it's more fair. 

In general that money earned is directly a result of choices you've made and that taxing richer people more is basically taking more away from them because they made better choices.

For some people, fairness is more important then stability.

Of course this is why living expenses would have to be taken out of any "flat tax" since everyone should be provided with enough to live.

I mean... a similar comparison would be if in the NBA Kobe Bryant's field goals were worth 1 instead of 2.  And Ben Wallace's counted as 5.

Sure Kobe still will have more total points then Ben Wallace, but he has to work a lot harder to get it.

5% of America owns 95% of our money, I think thats how it goes right? First let me say that I live in region with the highest household income. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Virginia

Northern Virginia has 6 of 20 of the highest income counties in the nation, where nearly half of the households making over 100k per year. We are also, if you are curious,  where the DC sniper took place (Home Depot in VA), the Pentagon attack (the Pentagon is in Arlington VA), and the VTech sniper was from the HS down the street from my house. So basically most of the biggest events in the past 8 years emerged from here. (Sorry forgot AOL started/is operated from here). Also, we are the location of the T.C. Titans (Remember the Titans)

We are also one of the hardest hit regions from the recent housing slump. 

Now think about this. When 9/11 hit WE were affected the most outside of New York. WE  have been hit by acts of terror. WE have the highest household income. WE are the ones with the closest ties to Washington, and the inner workings of the federal government. So the fact that the richest, most affected, most in tune with Washington voters are STILL voting democratic doesn't say something to you all? If Obama's tax cuts went in to affect they know that they would pay more money, yet they agree to because they know that "OMG MORE TAXES" is something that needs to be done to fix the mess left behind by these new war happy, dishonest Republicans (NOVA 53-46 Kerry-Bush) Also, NOVA is the reason Virginia may end up being a blue state this election.

 

The Republican party takes middle America for a ride election after election as well. All they need to say is "gay marriage" "higher taxes" "terrorism" and they jump on the bandwagon without even paying attention to what they have done to the economy or what their plans are for the future. The plan in effect right now isn't just a Bush plan, its a neo-conservative plan. You have to put country before party, because if the Republicans win again on the same game plan lord only knows what other middle-class-screwing plans they will inact in order to benefit that richest 5%. This isn't just the "liberal media" trying to control the election. This is the response of good willing people who put country before self and want the best for everyone, and right now the conservatives have gone too far right to be of help to our democracy.

None of that adresses fairness at all.

Gay Marriage is actually another example the other way.  The people who care about fairness would be for Gay marriage.  Yet even most democratic politicians like Obama are against Gay Marriage.  Why?  There is no smart gain from it.  Heck Kerry lost votes for "Not being against gay marriage enough!"

Some things make the country run smoother.  Some things are more fair.

Some people believe treating everyone equally outweighs "what's best for the country."

That would include a flat tax in some form or another.  Taking out living expenses hopefully. (within reason of course.  No 30 million dollar mansion tax break because you "live there".)

 

I think people are putting gay marriage somewhere where it doesn't belong to be honest. Thats not a government issue at all. The government needs to be blind to both race and sex. But I agree though, saying you support gay marriage loses you votes. I neither support nor am against gay marriage. I simply don't care what someone else wants to do with their life unless it affects me. 

Whats funny though is that if you say anything other than "eww" or "thats nasty" people look at you like your crazy. Its like high school on a national level. 

And a flat tax rate is fair, no doubt, but then it becomes a moral issue more than a government issue. If you are making $600,000 a year I agree that you shouldn't really be forced to pay more. But if you are making a surplus of money and you can help your fellow Americans, wouldn't you want to? On top of that, we can see that this "ill handle me, you handle you" mentality is flawed in our economy. If the bottom falls out then everything falls apart. Rich Americans would not be rich if it weren't for the American people. They didn't actually perform the work, but they did provide and support the system in which they thrived. Its a moral obligation to help the country in a time of need, and it will help maintain the system that allowed rich people to reach that level in the first place.

 



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Jandre002 said:

But if you are making a surplus of money and you can help your fellow Americans, wouldn't you want to? On top of that, we can see that this "ill handle me, you handle you" mentality is flawed in our economy. If the bottom falls out then everything falls apart. Rich Americans would not be rich if it weren't for the American people. They didn't actually perform the work, but they did provide and support the system in which they thrived. Its a moral obligation to help the country in a time of need, and it will help maintain the system that allowed rich people to reach that level in the first place.

 

 

Our economy has a "I'll handle me and you handle you" mentality because that is how capitalism works. If you improve and make decisions that benefit yourself and I improve and make decisions that benefit myself, then everyone is better off. But to say that Americans have that mentality is wrong. Americans are quite generous and are always willing to help out their fellow man. Americans give more than double any other nation. as % of GDP to private charities.



Is it fair for people who can barely afford to pay for their food and rent to have to pay as much of a percentage of their income as taxes when there are people out there who were born into an affluent family, were able to receive an education, and are a professional making over 150k a year on their own?

Fairness to one person is not fairness to another. My family makes over 150k, and I do not think that is fair. To quote the Bible, which many Republicans conveniently ignore when it doesn't suit their interests, "The only thing they asked us to do was to remember the destitute, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10.

I have just never understood how the purportedly Christian party can have such an unsympathetic attitude towards the poor? It just doesn't make sense to me, unless you assume they are hypocrites.

I am not talking about you Kasz, as I have no idea what your religious orientation is.

And I am not claiming that religion should have any place in politics, I just find it very contradictory that the Republican Party claims to have the high ground on religious issues (or at least, religious issues as it defines them).



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
Is it fair for people who can barely afford to pay for their food and rent to have to pay as much of a percentage of their income as taxes when there are people out there who were born into an affluent family, were able to receive an education, and are a professional making over 150k a year on their own?

Fairness to one person is not fairness to another. My family makes over 150k, and I do not think that is fair. To quote the Bible, which many Republicans conveniently ignore when it doesn't suit their interests, "The only thing they asked us to do was to remember the destitute, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10.

I have just never understood how the purportedly Christian party can have such an unsympathetic attitude towards the poor? It just doesn't make sense to me, unless you assume they are hypocrites.

I am not talking about you Kasz, as I have no idea what your religious orientation is.

And I am not claiming that religion should have any place in politics, I just find it very contradictory that the Republican Party claims to have the high ground on religious issues (or at least, religious issues as it defines them).

Bold 1) They wouldn't be.  When you account for costs of living the poor would still be paying less.  What would be taxed would be income above "cost of living" which is a higher percent when you make more money.

People who are born into an affluent family get money because the people who earned that money want them to.  This is fair because those who earned that money have every right to decide what they do with it.  Whether it be give it to their family, or spend millions and millions of it away.


Bold 2) Christian Charity isn't about being forced to give away money.  It's about choosing to give away money to the poor.  It's a difference of opinion.  Small government Republicans(and Democrats) don't believe "SCREW THE POOR!"

They believe the Government is a wasteful, unorginized bueracracy that can't help the poor because all it does when it sees a problem is throw more money in it.  In otherwords when they have a cup with a hole in it.  There idea of keeping it full is to keep pooring water.  Not fix the hole.

They believe contributions to charities that work on smaller scale, and just for the goals of curing these problems work better.

Less money taking out for government programs that have questionable abilties means more money for social programs that work.

Would less money be contributed then the government takes?  Almost definitly... however the thought is the effectiveness of the programs would be better as money will be donated to the programs that work, and the programs that don't won't get money... unlike the government where everyone is kept around or reshuffled because they don't want to fire people.



Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Is it fair for people who can barely afford to pay for their food and rent to have to pay as much of a percentage of their income as taxes when there are people out there who were born into an affluent family, were able to receive an education, and are a professional making over 150k a year on their own?

Fairness to one person is not fairness to another. My family makes over 150k, and I do not think that is fair. To quote the Bible, which many Republicans conveniently ignore when it doesn't suit their interests, "The only thing they asked us to do was to remember the destitute, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10.

I have just never understood how the purportedly Christian party can have such an unsympathetic attitude towards the poor? It just doesn't make sense to me, unless you assume they are hypocrites.

I am not talking about you Kasz, as I have no idea what your religious orientation is.

And I am not claiming that religion should have any place in politics, I just find it very contradictory that the Republican Party claims to have the high ground on religious issues (or at least, religious issues as it defines them).

Bold 1) They wouldn't be.  When you account for costs of living the poor would still be paying less.  What would be taxed would be income above "cost of living" which is a higher percent when you make more money.

People who are born into an affluent family get money because the people who earned that money want them to.  This is fair because those who earned that money have every right to decide what they do with it.  Whether it be give it to their family, or spend millions and millions of it away.


Bold 2) Christian Charity isn't about being forced to give away money.  It's about choosing to give away money to the poor.  It's a difference of opinion.  Small government Republicans(and Democrats) don't believe "SCREW THE POOR!"

They believe the Government is a wasteful, unorginized bueracracy that can't help the poor because all it does when it sees a problem is throw more money in it.  In otherwords when they have a cup with a hole in it.  There idea of keeping it full is to keep pooring water.  Not fix the hole.

They believe contributions to charities that work on smaller scale, and just for the goals of curing these problems work better.

Less money taking out for government programs that have questionable abilties means more money for social programs that work.

Would less money be contributed then the government takes?  Almost definitly... however the thought is the effectiveness of the programs would be better as money will be donated to the programs that work, and the programs that don't won't get money... unlike the government where everyone is kept around or reshuffled because they don't want to fire people.

If you're willing to admit that less money goes to the donations than would if the government got involved, then I am willing to listen to what you have to say.

But I have never really believed that many Republicans or Democrats are as generous with their money in their personal lives as they would like to let on.  I am all for people doing volunteer work, and I have done a lot of it myself (was the president of a large volunteer organization in undergrad), but I know how many problems are out there that remain unaddressed.

And there are some things which are simply too large in scale for anybody except the government to take on.  Giving health insurance to children in poor families is one example, or a foodstamp program.

I have more faith in the government to help out the poor than I do for private individuals to help the poor, as bad as that sounds.  I just know when it comes down to it, most people never do volunteer work or even contribute that much to charities.  But I do have a great deal of respect for corporations who go out of their way to do so.  Hell, even Wal-Mart does a lot for how soulless of a corporation they are.



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

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I think it is spurious to say that conservatives do not care for the poor simply because they do not believe the government is the best tool to help others. Conservatives help others out. Not only do conservatives give more money to private charity, they also donate more blood and volunteer more time than liberals. I am neither conservative nor liberal, but I do give credit to others when credit is due. They care the same as liberals. They simply demonstrate it in a different way.



Jackson50 said:

Jandre002 said:

But if you are making a surplus of money and you can help your fellow Americans, wouldn't you want to? On top of that, we can see that this "ill handle me, you handle you" mentality is flawed in our economy. If the bottom falls out then everything falls apart. Rich Americans would not be rich if it weren't for the American people. They didn't actually perform the work, but they did provide and support the system in which they thrived. Its a moral obligation to help the country in a time of need, and it will help maintain the system that allowed rich people to reach that level in the first place.

 

 

Our economy has a "I'll handle me and you handle you" mentality because that is how capitalism works. If you improve and make decisions that benefit yourself and I improve and make decisions that benefit myself, then everyone is better off. But to say that Americans have that mentality is wrong. Americans are quite generous and are always willing to help out their fellow man. Americans give more than double any other nation. as % of GDP to private charities.

    ORLY?    ;)



Jackson50 said:

I think it is spurious to say that conservatives do not care for the poor simply because they do not believe the government is the best tool to help others. Conservatives help others out. Not only do conservatives give more money to private charity, they also donate more blood and volunteer more time than liberals. I am neither conservative nor liberal, but I do give credit to others when credit is due. They care the same as liberals. They simply demonstrate it in a different way.

Care to back that up with something tangible?  Because I will damn sure not take your word for it.

 



We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers…Also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.  The only thing that really worried me was the ether.  There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. –Raoul Duke

It is hard to shed anything but crocodile tears over White House speechwriter Patrick Buchanan's tragic analysis of the Nixon debacle. "It's like Sisyphus," he said. "We rolled the rock all the way up the mountain...and it rolled right back down on us...."  Neither Sisyphus nor the commander of the Light Brigade nor Pat Buchanan had the time or any real inclination to question what they were doing...a martyr, to the bitter end, to a "flawed" cause and a narrow, atavistic concept of conservative politics that has done more damage to itself and the country in less than six years than its liberal enemies could have done in two or three decades. -Hunter S. Thompson

akuma587 said:
Kasz216 said:
akuma587 said:
Is it fair for people who can barely afford to pay for their food and rent to have to pay as much of a percentage of their income as taxes when there are people out there who were born into an affluent family, were able to receive an education, and are a professional making over 150k a year on their own?

Fairness to one person is not fairness to another. My family makes over 150k, and I do not think that is fair. To quote the Bible, which many Republicans conveniently ignore when it doesn't suit their interests, "The only thing they asked us to do was to remember the destitute, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10.

I have just never understood how the purportedly Christian party can have such an unsympathetic attitude towards the poor? It just doesn't make sense to me, unless you assume they are hypocrites.

I am not talking about you Kasz, as I have no idea what your religious orientation is.

And I am not claiming that religion should have any place in politics, I just find it very contradictory that the Republican Party claims to have the high ground on religious issues (or at least, religious issues as it defines them).

Bold 1) They wouldn't be.  When you account for costs of living the poor would still be paying less.  What would be taxed would be income above "cost of living" which is a higher percent when you make more money.

People who are born into an affluent family get money because the people who earned that money want them to.  This is fair because those who earned that money have every right to decide what they do with it.  Whether it be give it to their family, or spend millions and millions of it away.


Bold 2) Christian Charity isn't about being forced to give away money.  It's about choosing to give away money to the poor.  It's a difference of opinion.  Small government Republicans(and Democrats) don't believe "SCREW THE POOR!"

They believe the Government is a wasteful, unorginized bueracracy that can't help the poor because all it does when it sees a problem is throw more money in it.  In otherwords when they have a cup with a hole in it.  There idea of keeping it full is to keep pooring water.  Not fix the hole.

They believe contributions to charities that work on smaller scale, and just for the goals of curing these problems work better.

Less money taking out for government programs that have questionable abilties means more money for social programs that work.

Would less money be contributed then the government takes?  Almost definitly... however the thought is the effectiveness of the programs would be better as money will be donated to the programs that work, and the programs that don't won't get money... unlike the government where everyone is kept around or reshuffled because they don't want to fire people.

If you're willing to admit that less money goes to the donations than would if the government got involved, then I am willing to listen to what you have to say.

But I have never really believed that many Republicans or Democrats are as generous with their money in their personal lives as they would like to let on.  I am all for people doing volunteer work, and I have done a lot of it myself (was the president of a large volunteer organization in undergrad), but I know how many problems are out there that remain unaddressed.

And there are some things which are simply too large in scale for anybody except the government to take on.  Giving health insurance to children in poor families is one example, or a foodstamp program.

I have more faith in the government to help out the poor than I do for private individuals to help the poor, as bad as that sounds.  I just know when it comes down to it, most people never do volunteer work or even contribute that much to charities.  But I do have a great deal of respect for corporations who go out of their way to do so.  Hell, even Wal-Mart does a lot for how soulless of a corporation they are.

1) Foodbanks.  Foodbanks are more efficient then Foodstamps because you know for a fact that money goes for food... and it covers inflation and other problems foodstamps have. 

Foodbanks infact is the private sector answer to the great inadequecies of the foodstamp program.  For example Foodbanks can provide more nutriotious food, as people tend to donate healthier foods then what people buy with Foodstamps. 

Often times people with Foodstamps tend to use them to buy there food, instead of increase how much money they spend on their food to get healthy alternatives. 

Instead of getting for example, healthy fruits vegetables and meats... plenty of people get the same ramen and other stuff they would otherwise get and entertainment stuff.

2) I agree with you on national healthcare.  Though that i see more as a "good for the country" initative then any sort of charity.  Government run healthcare means Buisnesses don't have to offer Healthcare.  Which means American goods don't have a hidden "Healthcare Tariff" that other products don't have... and healthy workers are good for the country.

However i wouldn't be surprised if something like a Comprehensive Free Clinic system could work.  Giving doctors and others tax breaks for doing charity work.  That's the way government should be pushing charity work.  By offering tax breaks and other incentives, not by taking money by legislative force.



akuma587 said:
Jackson50 said:

I think it is spurious to say that conservatives do not care for the poor simply because they do not believe the government is the best tool to help others. Conservatives help others out. Not only do conservatives give more money to private charity, they also donate more blood and volunteer more time than liberals. I am neither conservative nor liberal, but I do give credit to others when credit is due. They care the same as liberals. They simply demonstrate it in a different way.

Care to back that up with something tangible?  Because I will damn sure not take your word for it.

 

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

Of course i haven't seen any peer reviews of the book yet.  Just the first thing a google search brings up.

Apparent extracts

Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

-- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

-- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

-- In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

-- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.