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Forums - General - The big problem with Obama's economic plan.

"The Census Bureau has tracked the economic fortunes of affluent, middle-class and poor American families for six decades. According to my analysis, these tabulations reveal a wide partisan disparity in income growth. The real incomes of middle-class families grew more than twice as fast under Democratic presidents as they did under Republican presidents. Even more remarkable, the real incomes of working-poor families (at the 20th percentile of the income distribution) grew six times as fast when Democrats held the White House. Only the incomes of affluent families were relatively impervious to partisan politics, growing robustly under Democrats and Republicans alike." an exert from a NYT story found at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/magazine/27wwln-idealab-t.html

There are a large number of other studies with the same kinds of findings. Under republicans only the best off have real gains, while under democrats everyone (even the best off) have gains and equality increases.

Tax cuts DO help because there is nothing more toxic to an economy then heavy amounts of debt. Wonder why the dollar used to be worth more then the Euro under Clinton and now the Euro is with 1.50 or more most of the time? It is because huge debt reduces the value of our currency and our economic standing in the world. It isn't just a Clinton thing, every democrat (except carter) for almost the last 100 years has decreased inequality and grown the economy for everyone while Republicans just funnel more and more money into the pockets of the already rich.

If you think medicare and medicaid aren't a big deal lolcislaw, you don't know any poor or old people at all. Almost anyone over 65 bases their life around medicare and social security, two safety nets democrats put in place, and you will appreciate in your later years no doubt.

Obama is going to lower taxes for 95% of people (under 200k or so in income) and raise the taxes for the rich to what they were under clinton (when we had huge economic gains for 8 years). That will help increase equality and reign in our debt. Tell me, what pressing need do you think all these millionaires who can't pay 5% more in taxes have? Do you think they're struggling to pay taxes on their mansion or send their kid to harvard? I think not.




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psrock said:
TheRealMafoo said:

it does not take a rocket scientist to see this...

The US under Bush collected 20% more revenue then it did under clinton. When you cut taxes, you collect more money. When you raise taxes, you collect less money.

So raising taxes means the US government has less money to pay bills. (You can argue all you want, but history proves this fact)

The issue under the Bush administration has never been generating revenue, it's been insane spending.

We spend WAY to much money. The answer (and neither candidate is pushing for this), is to stop spending so damn much money in Washington.

Obama wants to spend more money, and he wants to do with with less income coming in... how the hell does that work?

 

I bet you even Bush would argue with you about this.

Maybe it's just me, but didnt Clinton leave a SURPLUS of cash when he left office. Don't we owe more money now than ever.  I don't get your point.

Common misconception. Clinton was a lame duck his last couple of years. The republican congress did spend less than what they got from tax revenue, thats a surplus or profit. But the national debt that was passed from that congress to the congress that came to power when Bush did was between 4-5 trillion.

 



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most of the 4-5 trillion was built up under Reagan and Bush version 1. The original supply siders started the debt, Clinton kept it in check, the then the second set of supply siders doubled it to almost 10 trillion now. It was Clinton not the republican congress that kept the deficit in check. Notice the SAME republican congress was around 6 years under Bush as the deficit has hit record heights.




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akuma587 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

And people completely ignore that some of the services that the government would provide if people were taxed that much (such as healthcare), people wouldn't have to pay for out of their pocket, so the taxes they pay would be offset in their disposable income.

 

name one service the government provides that's cheaper then the private sector.... one.

Everything the government pays for, you and I pay for. If the people don't pay for it out of there pockets, where is the money coming from? it doesn't come out of thin air.

Police protection, military protection, firefighting services, emergency aid...you see, a private company offering those same services would not want to do so without making a profit, and the government is not interested in making a profit, it is simply providing those services.

It is much more difficult to reign in on a private industry too because cities would have to sign a whole bunch of contracts with a whole bunch of different providers of these services across the country which would generate a bunch of needless litigation if there was fault on the part of the provider of that service.

Please explain to me how that would be cheaper, or a better alternative?  There is a reason why the government takes control over some things, because it would be inefficient to let the private sector do so.  Would we want to have all of our military power in the hands of private corporations?  What's to stop a foreign country from paying them more so they would wipe us off the face of the earth?

 

That is a border-line communist post.

 



Impulsivity said:
most of the 4-5 trillion was built up under Reagan and Bush version 1. The original supply siders started the debt, Clinton kept it in check, the then the second set of supply siders doubled it to almost 10 trillion now. It was Clinton not the republican congress that kept the deficit in check. Notice the SAME republican congress was around 6 years under Bush as the deficit has hit record heights.

You still have it wrong. Democrats had control of congress from 1986-1994, the economy tanked and debt rose. Before that Reagan, who understood economics and was a party leader) + Fiscally Conservative Congress = Incredible Economy.  The republican congress from 1994-2000 was a much different congress than the republican congress of 2000-2006. The one under Newt Gingrich (94-00) was a truly fiscally conservative congress, hence the reason for the economic boom. The 2000-2006 congress was a tax and spend congress (as cliche as that sounds) with a strong economy and terrible leadership (including bush who signed bills he knew were unconstitutional) which only eventually leads to disaster. The return to power for democrats in 06 only sealed the economy's fate.

 



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Impulsivity said:
most of the 4-5 trillion was built up under Reagan and Bush version 1. The original supply siders started the debt, Clinton kept it in check, the then the second set of supply siders doubled it to almost 10 trillion now. It was Clinton not the republican congress that kept the deficit in check. Notice the SAME republican congress was around 6 years under Bush as the deficit has hit record heights.

 

I see, so the last two years with a Democratic Congress, things have gotten better?



JaggedSac said:
akuma587 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
akuma587 said:

And people completely ignore that some of the services that the government would provide if people were taxed that much (such as healthcare), people wouldn't have to pay for out of their pocket, so the taxes they pay would be offset in their disposable income.

 

name one service the government provides that's cheaper then the private sector.... one.

Everything the government pays for, you and I pay for. If the people don't pay for it out of there pockets, where is the money coming from? it doesn't come out of thin air.

Police protection, military protection, firefighting services, emergency aid...you see, a private company offering those same services would not want to do so without making a profit, and the government is not interested in making a profit, it is simply providing those services.

It is much more difficult to reign in on a private industry too because cities would have to sign a whole bunch of contracts with a whole bunch of different providers of these services across the country which would generate a bunch of needless litigation if there was fault on the part of the provider of that service.

Please explain to me how that would be cheaper, or a better alternative?  There is a reason why the government takes control over some things, because it would be inefficient to let the private sector do so.  Would we want to have all of our military power in the hands of private corporations?  What's to stop a foreign country from paying them more so they would wipe us off the face of the earth?

 

That is a border-line communist post.

 

No it's not. Government providing such services and monopolizing the sector is socialism.

In other words Police service, Fire Fighting, and even Education are monoplized by the government and are socialized. Since the government doesnt make money or revenue, these services are payed for by private citizens via tax but the government owns and controls the business or service providers.

 



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