I think you forget what poor people have in America. Most of the "poor" I know refuse to get jobs, and do many, MANY things to hurt their situation themselves.

I don't understand why the government should be supporting everyone - rich, middle class, or poor. It's the citizen's job to help other citizens, not the government.

Welfare - supporting lower class people to get "better" - is like the lottery. Did you know that 33% of all lottery winners of large sums of money ($1m+) go bankrupt in 2 years? Even that statistic shows that most people in America don't know how to carefully spend their money. That's why we have a mortgage crisis. That's why we have poverty in the United States. If your intelligent, you can survive off very little money in the US. Problem is, most people that are "lower class" are also stupid, and wasteful that cannot manage their money. Ever notice *most* rich people also have good educations, and can manage their money? That's why people get rich.

Heck, I myself bought 2 rental properties, and have over a six-figure level of equity. I come from a family that lives at, or below the poverty line, and do very well for myself. How'd I do it? Stewardship: I manage what I have, and made sure that I made good, smart choices with my money and rose out of poverty MY SELF. All while earning minimum wage. That's right. 2 houses and over $100,000 in equity by working for minimum wage. Any of my friends that I've grown up with could do the same thing I did, but chose not to. Because of that, I don't understand why the government is mandated to bail out people for stupidity.

The stories about the oh-so tragic poor in the country are vastly overblown, and are used as a stepping stone to promote more a more socialistic government: Since there are so many "tragedies" in America with the poor, then they feel that instead of doing something themselves, they force everyone to help by taxing. And unfortunately, again, much of what happens goes to the wrong people, and the wrong time, because the government doesn't have a calling and true mandate to help the poor: politicians are forcing them to do it, and the failure of the "war on poverty" shows.

Personally, the most disturbing thing about Paul_Warren's posts on this thread is he takes the (typical Communist) view that people who are "Wealthy" are somehow undeserving of their wealth ...

Now, there are lots of cases of people who are undeservingly "Wealthy" by some standard, but for the most part people became wealthy because they had the ambition, took on a large risk, and worked hard to build something of value; quite often what they built was a small or mid-sized company which employs a lot of people and provides a valueable product or service to the public (or other companies).

The question a lot of people don't seem to understand is 'Why would someone take on the risk, and put in the effort, to build something valueable if you take away the (monetary) incentive?'

You, sir, should be punished for being motivated, what the hell is wrong with you? Don't you know that you should suck the government teat and vote democrat?? I say we tax the hell out of you and give your money to the more deserving lazy less fortunate people. Working hard and lifting YOURSELF out of poverty? Without the GOVERNMENT'S HELP?? BAH! You're just greedy. You probably like big oil and hate monorities, too.

By the way, my story is kind of similar. My family was lower-middle to middle class (or skirting the poverty line, depending on the year), and they've been in debt up to their eyeballs for as long as I can remember. I've worked hard to build my income by building my marketability (via acquiring skills), get out of debt, and have my first rental property. I should also be punished for thwarting the American dream to be spoonfed instead of learning to feed myself. And we're the ones that get called 'backwards'.

Listen, people that work low paying manual labor jobs work one hell of a lot harder than some realtor that has the priviledge of being able to tell others to do their work for them. Anyway, under the Republicans, the rich always get richer while the poor get poorer. The best example, under Bush and his oil family friends and cronies gasoline is now over $3.00 a gallon if you live in an area of the US that has no jobs and you have to drive 60 miles round trip to work each day while only making slightly above minimum wage, all of the money that you make from your work goes into your daily transportation. When Bill Clinton was President, gasoline was only about a dollar a gallon, and middle income families were much better off in comparison to the rich, and those are facts.

Oh yes, one more thing, mrstickball, I looked at those lists you posted of why you don't want to vote for Obama, and one thing that I think I can read about your character from those lists is that it seems as if faith and quite possibly being a person of Christian faith is a major reason that you don't want to vote for Obama.  All I really have to add to that is that Jesus and Jehoavah are both mythical beings.  There is no validity for creationism and no moral reason to be opposed to abortion or stem cell research.  And if there was any kind of intelligent design involved in the creation of the world now it was done by grey cow molesting, cornograph drawning, anal probing aliens from the planet Nibiru and not yahweh or Yoda or whatever that diety's name is supposed to be.

Your really blaming gas prices on Bush?  I'm guessing your not that well informed on stuff then if you don't know why gas prices are what they are.

I mean... China's massive industrilzation mean anything to you?

Obama plans to give his Ethanol buddies a bunch of extra money by raising our ethanol subsidies... which in turn rises the price of food and is a cause for the global food crisis.

Which makes food expensive for you, me and everyone else around the world.

The global food crisis is the real problem we need to worry about when it comes to helping the poor.

That and the price of food.  Really we need to rapidly increase gas sources through something that isn't biofuels.

Like Natural Gas powered cars, and plug in cars. (which John McCain has a nice tax credit for.)

While switching over some energy to the only "clean" energy source currently ready for the mass Market.  Nuclear Power.

First off, if you are working a "Low paying manual labour position" and you feel that someone else has a much easier job that pays much better there is something you can do ... Go out and do what is necessary to get that job rather than whine about how the world is unfair. Now, do you have any statistics to back up your claim that "under the Republicans, the rich always get richer while the poor get poorer"?

As for the price of oil ... Oil is one of the few products that is bought and sold in an (almost) perfectly free market. This means that the price of oil is primarily driven by Supply and Demand (although there is some influence from speculation). Realistically, the American Government is not powerful enough to have much influence on the price of oil ... in particular given the current ecconomic climate of India and China growing at an alarming rate (dramatically increasing energy demand) while lobby groups through most of the world prevent any action to produce more energy (limiting the supply).

Actually, the largest rise in the Gini coeeficent was during Bill Clintons Presidency from 93 to 94.

If i'm reading this right anyway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Gini_since_WWII.gif

While Bush 1 actually seemed to be lowering it.

Ok, you are clearly not speaking from experience. I actually worked a manufacturing job for two years, and now I am in a much higher paying job that involves being in charge of a division of a small business. While I worked hard physically in the manufacturing job, the better paying job involves much longer hours, TONS more stress due to a high level of responsibility (manufacturing was not high stress, just tiring), and I would honestly say I work much harder than I did in manufactuing, just in a different way. The vast majority of Rich people put in significantly more than a 40 hour workweek and have far more responsibility than those at the bottom. I actually know a few millionaires personally, and they are the most down to earth, hard working people I've ever met, and most of them started out poor. They've WORKED there way up, and they (for the most part) work way harder than you could possibly understand.

But thanks for speaking out of ignorance.

Yes, the Chinese have a much higher demand for fuel than they did, yes Ethanol has risen the price some.

But you are completely ignoring the facts if you think Bush's actions didn't affect the price greater than both of those things.  Prices were consistently higher after we invaded Iraq.

Whereas China is still consuming way less oil than we do.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,501041025-725174,00.html

Over the long term, experts say China's energy appetite will only continue to expand. If its oil demand keeps growing at an average rate of 7% a year, as it has since 1990, the country in less than 20 years will be consuming 21 million barrels a day�matching the current consumption of the U.S. "There's a big question mark as to whether that's sustainable," says Wu.

Here is a comparison:

The Bush economic policies are just as big of a factor, the insane deficit spending and ballooning of the national debt which have drove the dollar into the ground:

http://www.geotimes.org/apr08/article.html?id=WebExtra041508_2.html

Oil reached another all-time high today, topping $114 a barrel in global trading. The reasons for the rise are manifold, including new concerns from the International Energy Agency about supply shortages. But one cause of the high price is the depreciating dollar, which dropped again today in trading. When the dollar falls, oil prices rise because investors are more likely to use their money to buy hard commodities that won't lose as much value such as oil and gold.  

In fact, much of the rise in oil prices is due to a weakening U.S. dollar. This chart shows the price per barrel of oil in dollars and euros over the last five years. The widening gap between the two lines indicates that 35 percent of the increase in the price of oil could be attributed to currency devaluation. Of course, the falling dollar is due, in part, to the rising price of oil.

Meanwhile, the national average for gasoline prices in the United States also hit record highs of nearly $3.40 per gallon, with diesel fuel prices rising to $4.12 per gallon. Analysts say prices are unlikely to fall anytime soon, especially as the summer driving season gets under way in the United States.

I don't think you can blame the weakening dollar on Bush. It's the Federal Reserves fault.

Those guys have been putting off this recession for ages and it's just gotten uglier and uglier.

Also, as a Re on the Gini Coefficent. It looks as if the Gini Coefficent raised much higher under Clinton then it did Bush.

In otherwords. Clinton was worse for the "widening gap."

Infact in 2007 the Gini Coeeficent is practically back to where it was under Clinton!

Unless there has been a huge change... the rich haven't gotten richer... Bush has been the first president in a long time to keep the gap between the rich and poor about the same.