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Forums - Microsoft - Halo 3 Scoops Edge Award for Interactive Innovation

Tigawoods on 12 August 2008
JaggedSac said:
L.C.E.C. said:

Just to be fair, I'm going to compare this list of added "Features" from Halo 2 to Halo 3, with the new "Features" from Brawl to Melee

Theatre mode: Brawl also has replays, although with limits due to memory-limits

Is the theatre mode in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net? Can you take photos, clips, etc and have them uploaded to a website automatically? Can you watch it online in game with a group of people?

Forge: Stage Creator in Brawl, much less advanced, but much easier to use. I can't get anything I want to work the way I want it to in either, but Brawl's is slightly less frustrating.

Is the stage editor in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net? Is it easy for people's custom maps to be played during an online match?
 

Stats: OK, there are no stats for Brawl, but there are "Records", which while clearly less competitive, they are there.

Are the records in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3's stats and Bungie.net? Are the records in Brawl easily digestible by third parties, like Halo 3's stats that are hosted by Bungie.net?

File Share: In brawl, but you must send the file to a friend.


Is the file sharing in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net?


Party System: Not in Brawl, because The most people you will play with is 4.

I will reiterate that the party system is amazing and I cannot stand when games do not have one.

Does Nintendo provide for seamless integration of new map variants and game types on a weekly basis for use in multiplayer matches? Such as Bungie does.
 
Halo 3 obviously got the award for their innovations in providing interaction between game and internet hosted features. There might be something similar out there, but nothing to the degree and support that Bungie has done.
As for your balancing issues.


Balance: Capping the sword did almost nothing, because you can still get 10 kills. Halo 3's Balance is completely laughable. Headshots are completely over-rewarded. Grav Hammers are still whored by noobs, and plasma pistol is now even more useless. Melee attacks, or "assasinations" when from behind, are too powerful and far too unrealistic (pistol whipping someone won't hurt them as much as a bullet will), People still shotgun camp like hell, and there are an assload of more problems with the the game's balance. Don't even try to joke about it by calling the game "balanced".

Maybe you should change your strategies if you die so much by swords and hammers. They are quite easy to counter(especially the hammer, which is only useful in certain scenarios)...don't run up to them.
 
Head shots are rewarded in most FPS games, more so in others actually.
 
Assassinations are there to make sure you are aware of your surroundings and enemy positions. If you get assassinated a lot(which I am assuming you do since you are complaining about it), perhaps you should be more aware, especially considering a radar is provided in the majority of the matches. If you get assassinated while having a radar, it is laughable. You should not attempt to bring realism into the realm of gameplay, ie. anything in Brawl.
 
Shotgun camping? That seems like more problems with your strategy. I will concede that a guy camping with a shotgun will get me every now and then, but not more than once. In fact, I make it my mission once I respawn to take care of the camper. Once you know where a camper resides, it is quite simple to clean them out. After that point I make note to check that position for the rest of the game in case that person decides to try the tactic again. If someone is constanly being killed by a camper...they deserve it. Shotguns are not a very difficult weapon to overcome, it is a very, very close range weapon.  It performs very much like shotguns have in games for years, deadly at close range, pitiful at medium to long range.  Not sure how game balancing comes into play.
 
None of your problems with balance are actually problems. I am not that great of a player and none these things are a problem for me.

Arguably, Halo 3's theater is better, and you might be able to argue the same for forge and stats, but:

There is no argument.

Brawl has more customizable controls.

Brawl added a storyline, a first in the series.

Brawl has a storyline? Super Mario Bros. had a storyline too.

Brawl has more characters, while in halo you can only play as A spartan or an Elite, or an arbiter in the story mode, brawl has 35 characters.

It is a fighting game, it is based on different characters with different abilities, fighting each other.

Brawl added Co-Op, whereas Halo has had Co-op since the first game.

Halo 3 added 4 player online co-op, which is nothing new.

Brawl added online, which was not in either of the previous games at all.

Brawl has more unlockables

You can play with 5 different controller types in brawl, while in Halo 3, you are limited to wired or wireless.

Keeps things balanced by only having one type of input device. That way players do not have an advantage/disadvantage either way, everyone is on an even keel.

and the list could go on...

 

Once again, the award was given for their marriage of the game and Bungie.net. It opens a huge door for future usage and the amount of content uploaded to Bungie.net is staggering, so it is definitely being put to good use. It is about creating and fostering a community of gamers. Bungie is also hinted at something huge they were adding to Halo 3 in September. Probably another good example of there excellent grasp of software engineering and OO design.

Nothing against Brawl but this poster's points of comparison do not match up in any way.

 

 

 

 Agreed Jagged. The balance argument is completely laughable and sounds like its coming from someone who has no idea what they are talking about. Shotgun camping? Battlefield games have 5 times as much camping as Halo. The balance in Halo is not perfect but your laughable comparisons show nothing but your ignorance and lack of knowledge of the game. 

Brawl in itself is far from innovative and a lot of people still prefer melee over Brawl (including myself). Brawl is a great game but if you are trying to compare all the features to Halos they are worse than Half assed. If you can't figure out how to use forge then frankly you're dumb. No other way around it. How are you going to use any other map editor say one like Starcrafts if you can't figure out Forge?

Anyway  /rant off Jagged said the rest. 

 



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FinalEvangelion on 12 August 2008

I've had almost equal and opposite opinions to Edge reviews, and this just substantiates the fact further.

I do agree that Halo 1 had some innovation in the fact that people could LAN their consoles in a big multi-player setting. Halo 2 and 3 seemed exactly the same as Halo 1.



"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."  --Hermann Goering, leading Nazi party member, at the Nuremberg War Crime Trials 

 

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L.C.E.C. on 12 August 2008
Tigawoods said:
JaggedSac said:
L.C.E.C. said:

Just to be fair, I'm going to compare this list of added "Features" from Halo 2 to Halo 3, with the new "Features" from Brawl to Melee

Theatre mode: Brawl also has replays, although with limits due to memory-limits

Is the theatre mode in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net? Can you take photos, clips, etc and have them uploaded to a website automatically? Can you watch it online in game with a group of people?

YES, for pics, others, no, Instead, daily maps, videos, and pics are sent to everyone's Wii daily.

Forge: Stage Creator in Brawl, much less advanced, but much easier to use. I can't get anything I want to work the way I want it to in either, but Brawl's is slightly less frustrating.

Is the stage editor in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net? Is it easy for people's custom maps to be played during an online match?


No, It's attached to the smash service on everyone's Wiis. No.

Stats: OK, there are no stats for Brawl, but there are "Records", which while clearly less competitive, they are there.

Are the records in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3's stats and Bungie.net? Are the records in Brawl easily digestible by third parties, like Halo 3's stats that are hosted by Bungie.net?

Wow. You've got a One-track mind, don't you. Have you ever considered the fact that some people don't even CARE about bungie.net? I don't. I have only visited the site once, and I still have no Idea what everyone is so damn impressed about.

File Share: In brawl, but you must send the file to a friend.


Is the file sharing in Brawl closely attached to a website, like Halo 3 and Bungie.net?

For the last time, I could give a damn less about website attachment and Bungie.net.


Party System: Not in Brawl, because The most people you will play with is 4.

I will reiterate that the party system is amazing and I cannot stand when games do not have one.

Does Nintendo provide for seamless integration of new map variants and game types on a weekly basis for use in multiplayer matches? Such as Bungie does.
 
Halo 3 obviously got the award for their innovations in providing interaction between game and internet hosted features. There might be something similar out there, but nothing to the degree and support that Bungie has done.

My Point is that there is no need for the party system due to the fact that Sakurai only wanted 4 players.


As for your balancing issues.


Balance: Capping the sword did almost nothing, because you can still get 10 kills. Halo 3's Balance is completely laughable. Headshots are completely over-rewarded. Grav Hammers are still whored by noobs, and plasma pistol is now even more useless. Melee attacks, or "assasinations" when from behind, are too powerful and far too unrealistic (pistol whipping someone won't hurt them as much as a bullet will), People still shotgun camp like hell, and there are an assload of more problems with the the game's balance. Don't even try to joke about it by calling the game "balanced".

Maybe you should change your strategies if you die so much by swords and hammers. They are quite easy to counter(especially the hammer, which is only useful in certain scenarios)...don't run up to them.

What do you take me for? I know how to take care of hammers and such, but if you've ever played oddball, you would know that The Gravity hammer, among a few others, gets totally whored around.
 
Head shots are rewarded in most FPS games, more so in others actually.
 
Assassinations are there to make sure you are aware of your surroundings and enemy positions. If you get assassinated a lot(which I am assuming you do since you are complaining about it), perhaps you should be more aware, especially considering a radar is provided in the majority of the matches. If you get assassinated while having a radar, it is laughable. You should not attempt to bring realism into the realm of gameplay, ie. anything in Brawl.

I don't get assasinated a lot, it's just the concept that strikes me as idiotic. I mean, if you got knifed in the back of the head or something, I would understand. But you don't. You just hit them in the head with either your fist or whatever weapon you are holding. I'm not talking about a fantasy cross-over fighter being realistic. I'm talking about a sci-fi FPS being realistc.
 
Shotgun camping? That seems like more problems with your strategy. I will concede that a guy camping with a shotgun will get me every now and then, but not more than once. In fact, I make it my mission once I respawn to take care of the camper. Once you know where a camper resides, it is quite simple to clean them out. After that point I make note to check that position for the rest of the game in case that person decides to try the tactic again. If someone is constanly being killed by a camper...they deserve it. Shotguns are not a very difficult weapon to overcome, it is a very, very close range weapon.  It performs very much like shotguns have in games for years, deadly at close range, pitiful at medium to long range.  Not sure how game balancing comes into play.
 
None of your problems with balance are actually problems. I am not that great of a player and none these things are a problem for me.

OK, sure. Think what you want, but the next time when you're playing oddball on gaurdian, and Someone runs down to the shotgun spawn point with the skull, you can blame it on strategy. I know that you can *strategize* with different weapons and such, but there's a point at which all of that goes to waste.

Arguably, Halo 3's theater is better, and you might be able to argue the same for forge and stats, but:

There is no argument.

Wow, that was just asshole-ish.

Brawl has more customizable controls.

Hm... UNANSWERED!

Brawl added a storyline, a first in the series.

Brawl has a storyline? Super Mario Bros. had a storyline too.

Yeah, but SSB and SSBM did not, not to mention neither game has had an adequate story MODE (something Halo 3 seems to lack, a campaign over 10 hours long)

Brawl has more characters, while in halo you can only play as A spartan or an Elite, or an arbiter in the story mode, brawl has 35 characters.

It is a fighting game, it is based on different characters with different abilities, fighting each other.

Yes, but notice that they are all almost perfectly balanced.

Brawl added Co-Op, whereas Halo has had Co-op since the first game.

Halo 3 added 4 player online co-op, which is nothing new.

EXACTLY my point subtle improvements, as like what Rubang said.

Brawl added online, which was not in either of the previous games at all.

Hm... UNANSWERED!

Brawl has more unlockables

Hm... UNANSWERED!

You can play with 5 different controller types in brawl, while in Halo 3, you are limited to wired or wireless.

Keeps things balanced by only having one type of input device. That way players do not have an advantage/disadvantage either way, everyone is on an even keel.

Not really, as Wiimotes are $40, GC controllers are $20, and Nunchuks are $20, (wavebirds are discontinued, but are pretty much the same control-wise as regular gamecube controllers minus rumble and plus wireless), and the Wii-mote comes with the system.

and the list could go on...

 

Once again, the award was given for their marriage of the game and Bungie.net. It opens a huge door for future usage and the amount of content uploaded to Bungie.net is staggering, so it is definitely being put to good use. It is about creating and fostering a community of gamers. Bungie is also hinted at something huge they were adding to Halo 3 in September. Probably another good example of there excellent grasp of software engineering and OO design.

wow. Have you paid no attention to what I was saying? I'm backing the fact that Halo isn't as innovative as people make it out to be I can't really put it in better words than Rubang:

"Well that's why you think it's innovative.  It was your first Halo.  For millions of others it was their THIRD Halo, and thus, "more of the same," henceforth "not innovative."

Nothing against Brawl but this poster's points of comparison do not match up in any way.

Actually, they do. What I'm saying is that Halo 3 is Halo 2 with a couple of new bell & whistles.

 

 Agreed Jagged. The balance argument is completely laughable and sounds like its coming from someone who has no idea what they are talking about. Shotgun camping? Battlefield games have 5 times as much camping as Halo. The balance in Halo is not perfect but your laughable comparisons show nothing but your ignorance and lack of knowledge of the game. 

Brawl in itself is far from innovative and a lot of people still prefer melee over Brawl (including myself). Brawl is a great game but if you are trying to compare all the features to Halos they are worse than Half assed. If you can't figure out how to use forge then frankly you're dumb. No other way around it. How are you going to use any other map editor say one like Starcrafts if you can't figure out Forge?

Anyway  /rant off Jagged said the rest. 

 

OK, Read my reverse to his arguments, and the fact that he didn't respond to half of my points.

I know exactly what I'm talking about when I am talking about balance.

I'm not comparing Halo to Battlefield.

I'm not comparing features directly, but the number of new features since the last installment, backing Rubang's statement:

"Well that's why you think it's innovative.  It was your first Halo.  For millions of others it was their THIRD Halo, and thus, "more of the same," henceforth "not innovative."

I CAN use forge, but I am never satisfied with the way it turns out due to the way it is presented and controlled. I could probably use starcraft's  MUCH easier (if I was really into strategy games), due to the fact that it is controlled by a mouse and keyboard, and is probably much more fine-tuned.

I really can't believe that you guys can't see what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Halo 3's general lack of new features and enhancements. that is not limited to online. How did Halo 3 "further the creative culture of gaming"? Interactive Innovation does not necessarily mean Online. All of the other contenders, WiiFit, SMG, Portal, and SMG, heck, maybe even rockband, are more "interactively innovative". Halo has just shown us that if you hype a game enough, advertise enough, and rehash the same game with some new graphics and online features, then you can get an award for innovation because everyone will be afraid of making the fanboys mad. It just makes the "Culture of Gaming" Seem more like a shallow bitch, than a more evolved "innovative interactive culture"

/rant




JaggedSac on 12 August 2008

LOL. I didn't respond to some of your points because I found them even less worth my time than the others. Customize the controls?? I shouldn't have even responded to the character one. I have never been shotgun whored playing oddball(throw some grenades down the hole or down the tunnel, that spawn is a death trap and a right terrible place to try and defend the ball), and I have played over 1,000 matches bossman.

But the main thing I enjoyed you saying was that you only visited Bungie.net ONE time. THAT is the main reason they gave them the award, and THAT was the main reason I harped on that subject. And THAT is why you do not understand why they are innovative. How can you have seen all that was to be seen in one visit to the site? Unless it was a very long visit.  Interaction does not necessarily mean the input devices used in the game.  In this case, interaction with the game is in the form of all the extra things that can be done and gathered on Bungie.net.

 



Bitmap Frogs on 12 August 2008

Beware, JaggedSac is one interpolated and fierce forum warrior!





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

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JaggedSac on 12 August 2008
Bitmap Frogs said:
Beware, JaggedSac is one interpolated and fierce forum warrior!

LOL.  I remember that.  Sometimes I get a little into it.  Interpolation is not bullshit though :)

 



Strategyking92 on 12 August 2008

I wouldn't have wasted my time.... and probably couldn't argue as well...
GJ jagged



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L.C.E.C. on 13 August 2008

OK, I just went to bungie.net, looked at the weekly updates, looked at some of the community files, AGAIN... Though it seems to have pretty good integration, I still don't see what the big deal is. (and yes, I've downloaded videos from there to my XBOX before).