In order to define the hardocre gamer it would first help if we defined what a "gamer" is. Does someone who plays Go Sudoku! count as much as someone who plays Oblivion? I think mainstream succes of gaming has made it very difficult to determine which type of games are hardcore or not, that is why I think the amount of time spent is more important than which games are played.

Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Personally, I think it boils down to the amount of time you will sit per session and play. I think casual games are the quick and dirty, less than an hour (maybe upwards of two, but most likely little puzzle games.) Whereas, the hardcore gamer is someone that dedicates a large portion of their week to gaming. This could be in the form of 2-3 hours (or more) on week nights and 6-8+ on Saturday and Sunday (averaging about 20+ hours a week) MMO players could very easily be placed in the hardcore territory mostly since they pay to play most of the time, but also because of the time needed. There are, however, those that play MMOs that I place in the casual realm simply by the play time per week. But when you talk about MMOs, your treading a very gray line. MMOs have got to be the most hardcorest of hardcore by your definition. I don't understand how it can be viewed as gray? The whole point of MMOs is to spend more time. The more time you spend, the more powerful your character becomes. I don't know of any genre that gets people who play 10+ hours a day consistently the way MMOs can. There's a reason why the terms "Evercrack" and "World of Warcrack" came into existance.

I would agree if it were for Everquest alone, but WoW has opened MMOs to those with only an hour or so a night. Sure, there are those that spend more, but in WoW you can actually be a casual gamer and still play it. You aren't going to be real famous with the guilds or have the top tier equipment, but as a casual gamer your most likely not going to really care about that. The game is simple enough to pick up and play in tiny amounts without requiring heavy play times. I know alot of people that I would consider casual that wouldn't dare pick up EQ, EQ2, etc. because of the almost required heavy online time (time sinks), but they feel perfectly happy with WoW since they can play it easily (really no time sinks, and the skills in game are not that tough to figure out and with all the interface add-ons the game virtually plays itself.) They also don't need to spend a lot of time on it. My Boss is a prime example of someone interested in games, but doesn't want something that takes hours a night to play. He logs into WoW about 3 times a week. I'd consider him casual and an MMO player.

Andir said: Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Personally, I think it boils down to the amount of time you will sit per session and play. I think casual games are the quick and dirty, less than an hour (maybe upwards of two, but most likely little puzzle games.) Whereas, the hardcore gamer is someone that dedicates a large portion of their week to gaming. This could be in the form of 2-3 hours (or more) on week nights and 6-8+ on Saturday and Sunday (averaging about 20+ hours a week) MMO players could very easily be placed in the hardcore territory mostly since they pay to play most of the time, but also because of the time needed. There are, however, those that play MMOs that I place in the casual realm simply by the play time per week. But when you talk about MMOs, your treading a very gray line. MMOs have got to be the most hardcorest of hardcore by your definition. I don't understand how it can be viewed as gray? The whole point of MMOs is to spend more time. The more time you spend, the more powerful your character becomes. I don't know of any genre that gets people who play 10+ hours a day consistently the way MMOs can. There's a reason why the terms "Evercrack" and "World of Warcrack" came into existance. I would agree if it were for Everquest alone, but WoW has opened MMOs to those with only an hour or so a night. Sure, there are those that spend more, but in WoW you can actually be a casual gamer and still play it. You aren't going to be real famous with the guilds or have the top tier equipment, but as a casual gamer your most likely not going to really care about that. The game is simple enough to pick up and play in tiny amounts without requiring heavy play times. I know alot of people that I would consider casual that wouldn't dare pick up EQ, EQ2, etc. because of the almost required heavy online time (time sinks), but they feel perfectly happy with WoW since they can play it easily (really no time sinks, and the skills in game are not that tough to figure out and with all the interface add-ons the game virtually plays itself.) They also don't need to spend a lot of time on it. My Boss is a prime example of someone interested in games, but doesn't want something that takes hours a night to play. He logs into WoW about 3 times a week. I'd consider him casual and an MMO player.

What game CAN'T you play for an hour a night? I'm playing Resident Evil 4 that way right now. I know you can do the same for Gears of War...

Honestly, WoW just takes it from "super, retardedly hardcore" to "very hardcore." I just think it's odd to say: "This game can technically be played an hour a night, even if most people play it more. Therefore, it's not hardcore." By that definition, there are no games of any kind that are hardcore.

Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Personally, I think it boils down to the amount of time you will sit per session and play. I think casual games are the quick and dirty, less than an hour (maybe upwards of two, but most likely little puzzle games.) Whereas, the hardcore gamer is someone that dedicates a large portion of their week to gaming. This could be in the form of 2-3 hours (or more) on week nights and 6-8+ on Saturday and Sunday (averaging about 20+ hours a week) MMO players could very easily be placed in the hardcore territory mostly since they pay to play most of the time, but also because of the time needed. There are, however, those that play MMOs that I place in the casual realm simply by the play time per week. But when you talk about MMOs, your treading a very gray line. MMOs have got to be the most hardcorest of hardcore by your definition. I don't understand how it can be viewed as gray? The whole point of MMOs is to spend more time. The more time you spend, the more powerful your character becomes. I don't know of any genre that gets people who play 10+ hours a day consistently the way MMOs can. There's a reason why the terms "Evercrack" and "World of Warcrack" came into existance. I would agree if it were for Everquest alone, but WoW has opened MMOs to those with only an hour or so a night. Sure, there are those that spend more, but in WoW you can actually be a casual gamer and still play it. You aren't going to be real famous with the guilds or have the top tier equipment, but as a casual gamer your most likely not going to really care about that. The game is simple enough to pick up and play in tiny amounts without requiring heavy play times. I know alot of people that I would consider casual that wouldn't dare pick up EQ, EQ2, etc. because of the almost required heavy online time (time sinks), but they feel perfectly happy with WoW since they can play it easily (really no time sinks, and the skills in game are not that tough to figure out and with all the interface add-ons the game virtually plays itself.) They also don't need to spend a lot of time on it. My Boss is a prime example of someone interested in games, but doesn't want something that takes hours a night to play. He logs into WoW about 3 times a week. I'd consider him casual and an MMO player. What game CAN'T you play for an hour a night? I'm playing Resident Evil 4 that way right now. I know you can do the same for Gears of War... Honestly, WoW just takes it from "super, retardedly hardcore" to "very hardcore." I just think it's odd to say: "This game can technically be played an hour a night, even if most people play it more. Therefore, it's not hardcore." By that definition, there are no games of any kind that are hardcore.

I'm not going to argue with you on this as it's my personal opinion (as evident by the first word I posted) vs your personal opinion. Simply put, I think hardcore gaming and time of play are a direct correlation of each other. The thread is not about hardcore games vs hardcore gamers. You could theoretically play any game in 15 minutes and turn it off, but your not going to get the most of of some games by doing that. 

Andir said: Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Bodhesatva said: Andir said: Personally, I think it boils down to the amount of time you will sit per session and play. I think casual games are the quick and dirty, less than an hour (maybe upwards of two, but most likely little puzzle games.) Whereas, the hardcore gamer is someone that dedicates a large portion of their week to gaming. This could be in the form of 2-3 hours (or more) on week nights and 6-8+ on Saturday and Sunday (averaging about 20+ hours a week) MMO players could very easily be placed in the hardcore territory mostly since they pay to play most of the time, but also because of the time needed. There are, however, those that play MMOs that I place in the casual realm simply by the play time per week. But when you talk about MMOs, your treading a very gray line. MMOs have got to be the most hardcorest of hardcore by your definition. I don't understand how it can be viewed as gray? The whole point of MMOs is to spend more time. The more time you spend, the more powerful your character becomes. I don't know of any genre that gets people who play 10+ hours a day consistently the way MMOs can. There's a reason why the terms "Evercrack" and "World of Warcrack" came into existance. I would agree if it were for Everquest alone, but WoW has opened MMOs to those with only an hour or so a night. Sure, there are those that spend more, but in WoW you can actually be a casual gamer and still play it. You aren't going to be real famous with the guilds or have the top tier equipment, but as a casual gamer your most likely not going to really care about that. The game is simple enough to pick up and play in tiny amounts without requiring heavy play times. I know alot of people that I would consider casual that wouldn't dare pick up EQ, EQ2, etc. because of the almost required heavy online time (time sinks), but they feel perfectly happy with WoW since they can play it easily (really no time sinks, and the skills in game are not that tough to figure out and with all the interface add-ons the game virtually plays itself.) They also don't need to spend a lot of time on it. My Boss is a prime example of someone interested in games, but doesn't want something that takes hours a night to play. He logs into WoW about 3 times a week. I'd consider him casual and an MMO player. What game CAN'T you play for an hour a night? I'm playing Resident Evil 4 that way right now. I know you can do the same for Gears of War... Honestly, WoW just takes it from "super, retardedly hardcore" to "very hardcore." I just think it's odd to say: "This game can technically be played an hour a night, even if most people play it more. Therefore, it's not hardcore." By that definition, there are no games of any kind that are hardcore. I'm not going to argue with you on this as it's my personal opinion (as evident by the first word I posted) vs your personal opinion. Simply put, I think hardcore gaming and time of play are a direct correlation of each other. The thread is not about hardcore games vs hardcore gamers. You could theoretically play any game in 15 minutes and turn it off, but your not going to get the most of of some games by doing that.

I understand you're opinion, and you're welcome to that definition. And by that definition, MMOs are the most hardcore, as people play them the most of any genre. 

Again, not arguing with your actual definition -- it's a reasonable one, even if it's not mine -- just arguing with the conclusions you draw from that definition. I personally do not think that MMOs are the most hardcore: I think that is either competitive FPS or RTS play, because my definition of hardcore is different. I'm just saying -- if you use your definition, no genre is more hardcore, because no genre is more heavily played than MMOs. It would be much like saying: "I think casual gamers are people who play very little, in short bursts. Therefore, I think tetris/puzzle style games are not very casual, because people tend to play them in long sessions," when I think we could both agree that they are the ultimate example of games that can be played in short bursts.

Similarly, MMOs are the ultimate example of a genre that lends itself to consistent, prolonged play. The currency in MMOs is time, and the more time you spend, the better your character gets, almost entirely independant of the player's skill level.

Have you played many MMOs much? I'm sorry, it just seems like such an odd comment that I'm a little fixated on it. Again, saying that MMOs don't take up much time is much like saying Survival Horror doesn't have much violence or Puzzle games take hours to complete or First Person Shooters don't lend themselves to professional play. Violence is at the core of survival horror, First Person Shooters dominate Professional Gaming (along with RTS), and MMOs are the most time consuming games in existance. 

Bodhesatva said: Have you played many MMOs much? I'm sorry, it just seems like such an odd comment that I'm a little fixated on it. Again, saying that MMOs don't take up much time is much like saying Survival Horror doesn't have much violence or Puzzle games take hours to complete or First Person Shooters don't lend themselves to professional play. Violence is at the core of survival horror, First Person Shooters dominate Professional Gaming (along with RTS), and MMOs are the most time consuming games in existance.

Yes I do actually, and funny enough, I find myself looking for a "more casual MMO".  I started on Everquest in 1999 and have since played, Eq2, Lineage 1&2, WoW, Eve, LoTRO, DDO, Guild Wars, CoH, Auto Assault, FFXI and many other smaller titles like Minions of Mirth, Sword of the New World, etc.  The deal with MMOs that I don't like is guilding.

The following is were I think you will agree with me (I hope.)  Any player that joins a guild is most likely a hardcore player or well on their way.  Guilds promote heavy social play and competition amongst guild members to be on the "A-team" or someone who is called upon the most.  It's a social structure not unlike High School.  Many people find that fun or whatever, but I find it rather unfavorable.  I love MMOs for the massive scale.  They usually contain huge dungeons, huge worlds to explore, items galore, and awesome character development.  However, I absolutely hate the guild aspect so many are falling toward.  I can see why they do it (money, peer pressure to continue playing, etc.) but I disagree with the end result.  In WoW you can play most of the game without ever entering a guild structure as most of the content is solo-able.  In other MMOs the content is designed for group or more content.

While I'm looking for a more casual MMO, I still consider myself a hardcore gamer.  My time is often split between many different games.  As a game developer, games are research for me.  But, there are times when I actually sit down and enjoy a game for it's depth, and MMOs have a lot of depth!  I often despise games for lack of depth or content (like puzzle games.)  This is were I draw my conclusions from.  For me, being hardcore requires time.

Andir said: Bodhesatva said: Have you played many MMOs much? I'm sorry, it just seems like such an odd comment that I'm a little fixated on it. Again, saying that MMOs don't take up much time is much like saying Survival Horror doesn't have much violence or Puzzle games take hours to complete or First Person Shooters don't lend themselves to professional play. Violence is at the core of survival horror, First Person Shooters dominate Professional Gaming (along with RTS), and MMOs are the most time consuming games in existance. Yes I do actually, and funny enough, I find myself looking for a "more casual MMO". I started on Everquest in 1999 and have since played, Eq2, Lineage 1&2, WoW, Eve, LoTRO, DDO, Guild Wars, CoH, Auto Assault, FFXI and many other smaller titles like Minions of Mirth, Sword of the New World, etc. The deal with MMOs that I don't like is guilding. The following is were I think you will agree with me (I hope.) Any player that joins a guild is most likely a hardcore player or well on their way. Guilds promote heavy social play and competition amongst guild members to be on the "A-team" or someone who is called upon the most. It's a social structure not unlike High School. Many people find that fun or whatever, but I find it rather unfavorable. I love MMOs for the massive scale. They usually contain huge dungeons, huge worlds to explore, items galore, and awesome character development. However, I absolutely hate the guild aspect so many are falling toward. I can see why they do it (money, peer pressure to continue playing, etc.) but I disagree with the end result. In WoW you can play most of the game without ever entering a guild structure as most of the content is solo-able. In other MMOs the content is designed for group or more content. While I'm looking for a more casual MMO, I still consider myself a hardcore gamer. My time is often split between many different games. As a game developer, games are research for me. But, there are times when I actually sit down and enjoy a game for it's depth, and MMOs have a lot of depth! I often despise games for lack of depth or content (like puzzle games.) This is were I draw my conclusions from. For me, being hardcore requires time.

I agree with all of this: and I'm glad we do. Wasn't trying to make enemies, and I really like new people on the boards, so I was a tad afraid of running you off with my brusk responses.

Please accept that even if we do disagree on one specific topic, I have thus far respected the articulation and clarity of your posts. Kudos. 

 

"Hardcore gamer" is a term usually used by teenagers in an attempt to elevate their hobby of playing videogames to a level in which it seems more important than what it really is... which is just playing videogames.

If you play only a few games or one game or genre a lot that makes you a hardcore player of that game or genre, not a hardcore gamer....