Squilliam said: CrazzyMan said: x360 is already almost 3 years on the market. Ps3 only around 2. IF on E3`08 won`t be shown x360 games, wich look better then ps3, then YES, it`s OVER for x360. The concept of the Wii makes your statements meaningless. try again plz.

Crazzyman is correct here Squilliam.

MikeB said:   (...) The controls and game preferences are generally very different on the Wii compared to the other consoles anyhow, so likely if a game like Gears of War or Mass Effect would at some time go fully multi-platform, a Wii version would probably be based on an entirely different game engine.

MikeB, it's sentences like this which make me wonder... do you really think about what you write?

What do controls and game preferences have to do with having a different engine?

 

MikeB said: Squilliam said: MikeB said: Squilliam said: MikeB said: NJ5 said: MikeB said: @ Squilliam It will either be multiplatform or exclusive, depending on whether or not all the consoles had launched at the time they make it I think nomatter what console Microsoft might launch during the PS3 lifecycle, a PS3 (lead) version will be highly likely. Why? It doesn't make much sense to make a this-gen version when the next-gen consoles are starting to come out! The "10-year PS3 lifecycle" doesn't imply that the PS4 will come out in ~10 years... The people at Sony aren't crazy.     So? Even if so GTA V would not be the first game which would get released on 2 Playstation consoles simultaneously. The PS3 will have a much larger install base around the time a PS4 or the next XBox launches. The PS3 is quite a bit more powerful than the 360 and is better equipped for the future with a default easily upgradeable harddrive and Blu-Ray drive. It will take developers years to come near to the PS3's full potential, so enough time to finish all the GTA V's assets in mean time to build upon the massive technology gains made meanwhile. That "Full potential" is insignificant next to what the next generation consoles features and specifications. It would be like making a game for the Wii and the 360 at the same time. Possibly worse, considering the advances in programable shaders and their potential for future game development. You will understand when the direct3d 11 specification is released. The nextbox for instance will have probably the equivelent of between 2-6 times the performance of the Rv770 which is in itself 3x greater than the RSX. It depends on their silicon budget and when they release the console. Think between 1600 - 4000 shaders or equivelent based upon current RV770 shaders or maybe a new model. Who knows? I would be personally surprised if the next console has less than 2 Teraflops of M+Add shader power.     Nomatter if other versions will run at a higher framerate, render in a higher resolution, perform more pixel shader ops, etc, etc. The core game can be easily made to work on the PS3 and can be made to look awesome, just like God of War 2 is still a very pretty and impressive game compared to many 'next-gen' games out there. You will have to remember, the PS3 is currently very high spec, but half a decade from now it's a much cheaper and far more mass market console. Software companies and Sony are still supporting the PS2 after all those years. Dude, its not just about the fact that theres more power, if they start using the floating point power of the GPUs; their architecture and design are so different from the processors of today, even the Cell that it would probably be too difficult to even conceive of porting code from one to the other. Furthermore the ram limitations would be horrendous to overcome, similar to the reasons why porting to the Wii is difficult. Besides if the PS3 doesn't sell to a large enough audience then half a decade from now they won't even bother porting code to it anyway. Its not the PS2, that much is clear already. If Sony first parties aren't supporting it then, then who will?     Various games developers are stating and predicting that the 360/PS3 will be used as a basis for future games for many years to come until a new mass market next gen console hits the market. They don't anticipate much PC exclusive development, the focuss is on the consoles and will remain there for the foreseeable future. So game engines will advance towards ways best suited to the 360 and PS3 architecture, using the PS3 as a defacto basis for a game engine design with the ability to scale down/up towards 360 or PC would IMO be the best approach, as the PS3 gains also result into multi-core gains elsewhere. Actually at this point I think this is the best way to get more out of the 360, like UT3 development on the PS3 will probably help Gears of War 2 technically more so than if UT3 would have been first developed for the 360. So it may well be if games design for the GPUs will be so radically different, such a platform would face a similar problem as the PS3 has faced. I think a PS4 will be Cell based, the PS3 should thus pave the way for an easy transition towards its successor.

 

 No you actually have it backwards. Future console technolgy will follow PC trends which will follow direct 3d development of which Microsoft is a large part of. Because of this, Consoles will be compliant to PCs and not the other way around. It doesn't matter whether or not the console uses the Direct 3d API, they will still use hardware thats 90% designed to be compliant for that API anyway. Furthermore PC development is getting stronger, not weaker so im not sure where you're coming from there.

The best game engines are the ones designed for PC/360 use at present anyway, theres certainly a lot of directly relevant multi-core development thats happening on both platforms. Considering the amount of money being spent on X86 multi core development, it probably dwarfs Cell development by a factor of at least 10-1 being extremely conservative. As far as your statements about PS3 development improving the Xbox360 engine for GOW2, thats speculation at best. Theres no proof that the same code wouldn't have been used had the PS3 not entered into the UE3 development process.

Lastly, the difference between the Cell development and GPGPU development? They are already working on code for it. They aren't just throwing developers in at the deep end and making them swim. So by the time any new console comes out taking advantage of this technology, the framework and tools will already be developed and used by PC developers by the time console developers get their first look. This is an area where lots of money will be thrown at over the next 10 years as the payoffs are huge. These are the Cells biggest rivals - Intel (larrabee) Nvidia (Cuda) Amd (Fusion) and they will all be competing and throwing down billions of dollars to try and win the parellel computing market. Consoles will just be a front in this coming war. Medical Science - Laboritories - Games - Visual computing (Rendering/Photoshop/Encoding) are all multi-billion dollar markets to tap.

Rock_on_2008 said: Squilliam said: CrazzyMan said: x360 is already almost 3 years on the market. Ps3 only around 2. IF on E3`08 won`t be shown x360 games, wich look better then ps3, then YES, it`s OVER for x360. The concept of the Wii makes your statements meaningless. try again plz.     Crazzyman is correct here Squilliam.

Several points - 1. If you're that horny for visual perfection then you should own a high end PC and sell your PS3.

2. The PS1/2 were not the most technically brilliant consoles for their respective generations, yet they still sold well. So therefore technical excellence is not a huge selling point, look at the Wii if you can't see past this current generation.

3. Time on market is meaningless. What matters is whether or not people still want to buy that console. If yes then its still relevant.

 

NJ5 said: MikeB said:   (...) The controls and game preferences are generally very different on the Wii compared to the other consoles anyhow, so likely if a game like Gears of War or Mass Effect would at some time go fully multi-platform, a Wii version would probably be based on an entirely different game engine. MikeB, it's sentences like this which make me wonder... do you really think about what you write? What do controls and game preferences have to do with having a different engine?

 

Very different specs, different gaming methods and requirements => Other things are expected from a game engine compared to on other platforms, so it probably makes sense to style a game engine from the ground up (or overhaul) specifically for the platform.

MikeB said: NJ5 said: MikeB said:   (...) The controls and game preferences are generally very different on the Wii compared to the other consoles anyhow, so likely if a game like Gears of War or Mass Effect would at some time go fully multi-platform, a Wii version would probably be based on an entirely different game engine. MikeB, it's sentences like this which make me wonder... do you really think about what you write? What do controls and game preferences have to do with having a different engine?     Very different specs, different gaming methods and requirements => Other things are expected from a game engine compared to on other platforms, so it probably makes sense to style a game engine from the ground up (or overhaul) specifically for the platform.

I agree that the Wii should get different engines, but not because of controls or taste in games.

 

@ NJ5

I think game style plays a part, for example I think a game like Metroid Prime would be much easier to be based on a Unreal engine than a Mario Galaxy.

It's pretty pointless speculating on how most of the upcoming PS3 games will look better because SONY developers would like to make profits which I still don't think MGS4 developers has. SONY said they want to make earn a profit so I don't believe they will be spending MGS4 type of money which is required to make a PS3 game look good. PS3' potential has been touted since its launch. It's nearing two years and still most games look better on the 360. Pretty pathetic now that PS3 fanboys point to the one year head start when the XBOX had better graphics already than the PS2. This makes me realize that the PS3 while it might a have a couple of games looking better, 360 in the end will have the majority of the better looking games(multiplats). And it is sad that the powerhouse that is PS3 still doesn't have things like achievements, in game music and chat and a decent online service like XBLA even though it is more powerful. And even with the capacity of a blu ray games still need mandatory hardware install is pathetic. SONY is falling behind in every category except graphics since that is all they care about. Also R2 doesn't look all that better so I don't understand why GOW2 is being scrutinized.

@ Squilliam

This is why the gaming market more and more focusses on console technology:

Source: NPD (PC Gaming market, US/NA)

2001 - 2002 ~ 10% decline
2002 - 2003 ~ 14.3% decline.
2003 - 2004 ~ 14% decline
2004 - 2005 ~ 19% decline
2005 - 2006 ~ 2% growth! (World of Warcraft and the Sims 2 dominated, not the most demanding games)
2006 - 2007 ~ 9% decline

The console market on the other hand is generating record gains. The console market dwarfs the PC market. And consoles have become far more technically competitive with PCs, capable of doing everything a gaming PC does. The Cell provides more perfomance than ordinary PC CPUs can deliver with regard to gaming, there are already ~14 million PS3 with default Blu-Ray drives out there, the PC is probably going to adopt Blu-Ray a bit quicker than it did DVD, but still it's going to take quite a while. And consoles are now able to deliver an awesome online experience and it's going to get better with enhancements such as Home.

Rock_on_2008 said: Case Select Year When 2005 then x = "Call of Duty 2" When 2006 then x = "Gears of War" When 2007 then x = "Halo 3"  When 2008 then x = "Gears of War 2" Default x = "Gears of War" End Select Output = x & "will be the pinnacle of the 360 and its all downhill from there. In two years time it is expected the new XBox will arrive and the 360 would soon disappear." Return Output

 

 I went ahead and automated this for you guys...should save you some typing.