"Facts aren't just words coming from anywho's mouth... I see no proof in your Faith thing and I see no proof that there is a God. People in history has always used the word "God" to explain things they can't understand/don't know. There are still many mysteries in the Universe but it doesn't mean that a Divinity is behind it. People used to belive the earth was flat and no one questionned it until someone found out it wasn't. People used to belive the Earth was only 8000 yrs old or so and it isn't because there are proofs, REAL facts discovered by scientists. If someone can proof me with valid and solid facts that a God exists, I may consider changing idea. But stuff like Faith aren't facts, they're mere delusions created by humans." -lolita
This is what i'm talking about. Fact is the Proof that your talking about. Your not going to see Proof/Fact in Faith, because it is unexplainable. Everyone has a little bit of Faith (many don't realize it) and Faith is used to prove the things that are supernatural and spiritual rather than facts and proof that prove the physical. You call Faith delusions because you can't see what they are proving but my argument is that it is bad to think that way. Faith isn't like Facts at all it is a parallel to Facts, and like Facts it proves things. But Facts prove Physically and Faith proves Spiritually. That's all.
"Minus the typo, thats not claiming science is going to lead the world to ruination?" - sieanr
No i have nothing against Science at all. I said scientists or rather i should have said athiest or whatever, but i said nothing about Science "leading the world to ruination".
"Most people who have a poor grasp of science tend to conclude that theory=unproven/unsupported. Theory in the context of science is something that explains an occurence and is supported by evidence and experiment. You said gravity was a theory in a way that indicated it to be "untrue", or atleast not completly valid. This is a very common misunderstanding of science, usually by people who are ignorant with regards to science, which leads me to..." - sieanr
All theories must be supported by factual information to be considered as a valued Theory. The reason why a Theory is not a fact is because it isn't as of yet, or cannot be proven 100% correct. I think you misunderstood me again.
"Thats my point. Since you never mentioned it, you are making the discussion one sided - you are weighting things in your favor. Take this line in tandem with you assumption that science will lead to meaningless, "soulless" lives and it seems as though you have it out for all men in white labcoats." - sieanr
Look, the reason why I never mentioned it is because it has no reason to be in my argument. I'm not saying some religious leaders aren't attacking Science. But i am saying some scientists are attacking spirituality. And again, i never said anything about Science "leading the world into a meaningless, soulless state", what i said was that replacing everything with only hard-Science was going to lead the world into that state. The key is that i'm not trying to abolish Science, i'm trying to abolish the thinking that all there is is Science. So all in all, those people in white labcoats are my main target, as you say. But not because they are participating in science, but because theyu are completely disregarding anything spiritual. That's all.
"Either way, we do agree that people manipulate both science and religion for their own good. But science is about what is observable, imperical and provable. Changing science to include your nescience, as you suggest they are not mutally exclusive, would fundamentally change the core values of science. What I think you fail to realise is that science and religion somehow preclude one another from existing, yet they do not. They tackle different sujects, and thats where they should remain. Conflict only arises when one treads on the others foot. Religion has no place explaining the origins of man as that is in the realm of observable fact, but this issue is brought up time and time again. Science tries to explain the origins of man, but it has never wholly discounted the possibilty of a higher being. Virtually every scientist, even vehement evolutionist Rickard Dawkins, admit that there could be a higher power." -sieanr
I don't want to change Science at all. Science is fine as it is, what i want to change is people's views on life. Why can't Science and Nescience, the Natural and Supernatural, the Scientist and Reverend co-exsist? Why do they have to be one or the other. Right now i'm trying my best (in real life) to stop the Christians that i know from abolishing Science and to stop Scientists/Athiests (all people in general) from abolishing all of Nescience and Spirituality from thier minds. I do realize that but for the most part i 100% agree with you. The point your making now is the point i've been trying to make the whole time, but i guess i sounded a little to one-sided didn't I?
Oh and i wasn't trying to dispel the Theory of Gravity, I was trying to explain why it should be thought as a theory rather than a fact, and this is simply becuase we only have a limited view of the Universe. Trillions of Lightyears away is barely anything on a Universal scale.
"You believe in god, ok. I won't call you ignorant. I RESPECT your opinion. I don't call you a fool for believing in something I don't believe. Calling us ignorants when you have no exit isn't a tolerant attitude precisely. Sadly, this is very common." - yorch
Hey hey hey, i think you have the wrong idea. I was never calling you ignorant, i was just calling the ones who take only cold-hard Science and disregard all of Nescience/Spirituality ignorant, unless of course you are one of those people...
"In my opinion, there's no soul at all. Yeah, sometimes people see extrange things (my mother says she has seen a ghost of my grandmother... who died in her arms). But these are mental tricks. If you are convinced of something, you can make it true (at least for you). Our mind is really more powerful than we know, more more more much. Of course there are things we can't see, but our vision of the world is really limitated. Of course there would be things we can't explain, but that in any case proves the existence of god. At least for me, maybe he or she exists and laughs at me, or at you, because improving our understanding of the world, maybe we are aproaching to him. Because, if he created moral rules, ¿why not create a world based on rules?... those one are the ones we try to comprehend." -yorch
This is what seperates me from you. Because you abolished all from your mind that was from Nescience or Spritual, you think of everything as mental tricks. This is why you probably accept Full-Evolution. We are nothing but Beasts of Nature. This is why i won't be able to argue with you. About your thoughts on God, first of all if your talking about God like i do, God is niether a He nor a She, but we use the term he as a common reference. If God is God he cannot be compared to humans and thier need of genders. Why not create a world based on rules eh? I would say he already has. But he gives us free-choice to follow those rules or not, thus we are not slaves, and we are not unfairly forced to do what God wants.
"For example. A monkey has a lighter in his hands. Accidentally he lights it up, and appears fire. To him, this is nothing more than magic, supernatural, god-like. He would be back to his pack (I suppose is this word in english, I mean, the rest of the monkeys) and he'll show the lighter. If he manages to lighten it up another time, the rest of the monkeys will fear him, and he will probably become more atractive to the female monkeys and gain some position in the pack (these type of experiments had been realised a lot of times). For monkeys, this is magic. For us, it's logical. Normal." -yorch
Exactly. You see what Science has done to you, or rather, what you have did to yourself throughout you search throughout Science? Because of this you believe that Everything now is Scientifical, which in a sense is true because all of the Universe is Scientifical, but is false-bound do to the fact that not all forces within the Universe are of the Universe. Basically what i'm saying is that i can't argue with you because you've replaced Everything with Science and you feel that all that happens can be explained Scientifically. That, is why i'm not going to try and argue with you.
I'll post about Evolution later, but i'm sort of tired...
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