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Forums - Gaming - Second MGS4 review in -score 92 "story too complex"

Gnizmo on 21 May 2008
Ajax said:
 

ok, of course you've got a point like I also said, popularity doesn't by definition equal quality of course, but you must watch out with these kinds of comparison like with that flies comparison, 'cause this one is also a bit false; cause McDonalds is less good than a good restaurant of course, but that's comparing totally different genre's. You can say that in the fastfood genre, McDonalds actually is one of the best, and it isn't so popular for nothing. Just like you could say the plot of Metal Gear actually is quite good, but of course not when compared to great books and novels made by some of the great minds in the last centuries who have been writing stuff down.. also with the wii comparison.. the Wii actually IS great, but you must see it in a certain context and genre.. if you understand what I mean


 Ok lets compare apples to apples in as direct a manner as possible. Firefly is hands down the best sci-fi show I have seen ever. It was not just good for a sci-fi series, but good for a television series in general. It is in every way possible better than Stargate SG-1. Firefly has a small dedicated fanbase that never got very large. Stargate SG-1 has a legion of fans large enough to spawn two different spin-offs, a couple of direct to DVD movies, and 10 seasons. Popularity does not mean quality.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

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rocketpig on 21 May 2008
windbane said:
actually, I think it would be interesting for elitist rocketpig to suggest games that have a better storyline. perhaps I missed that in an earlier post.

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you to wait two weeks for the editorial. To put it frankly, the entire game industry is shit when it comes to storytelling. The only guy who I would give any storytelling credence is Tim Schafer. He may not write the most thought-provoking pieces but Goddamn it, he stays within the medium and makes the most out of it. His works are funny, smart, and tightly-woven.

BTW, nice attempt to brand me as an elitist just because I don't buy into common gamer rhetoric. Open your ideas about this medium and you'll realize just how badly it falls short of its potential to tell stories in ways that no one has ever dreamt of before. On the other hand, you could just keep accepting the drivel we're shoveled on a yearly basis and watch the medium descend into sitcom television for all of eternity. Yay. 




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rocketpig on 21 May 2008
Quickdraw McGraw said:

Wow, do you really have that much disdain for MGS' story, RocketPig?

In game industry run by games like Halo, Gears of War, God of War, Mario and Zelda I'd think you would at least acknowledge that MGS does delve into deeper issues and philosophies. In the other games you get stories as generic as Man (Usually possessing superhuman attributes) kills entire alien race almost by his own abilities alone. And with Gears/Mario, you don't even get a plot-line (Which works for Mario, Gears however...).

I totally agree that MGS doesn't have the best storyline out there. As you mentioned, it does suffer from drawn-out dialog and excessive explanation; I tend to ignore the almost sci-fi elements, as they're main purpose seems to be gameplay-related.
But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another series or title that matches both MGS' mixture of plot and gameplay. At the very least, it goes above and beyond what most videogames attempt to, and does so with a pretty good degree of success.

EDIT: Oh, and I like Kojima's attempts in grounding parts of his plot with what going on, currently, in the world. PMC's are actually pretty relevant, as is genetic engineering and digital distribution of information. He unfortunately tends to stray away from these at times, though (And that's where you're aforementioned "cheese" usually perks up).


See above post. This isn't an attack on MGS but video games in general. 




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Gnizmo on 21 May 2008
rocketpig said:
windbane said:
actually, I think it would be interesting for elitist rocketpig to suggest games that have a better storyline. perhaps I missed that in an earlier post.

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you to wait two weeks for the editorial. To put it frankly, the entire game industry is shit when it comes to storytelling. The only guy who I would give any storytelling credence is Tim Schafer. He may not write the most thought-provoking pieces but Goddamn it, he stays within the medium and makes the most out of it. His works are funny, smart, and tightly-woven.

BTW, nice attempt to brand me as an elitist just because I don't buy into the common gamer rhetoric. Open your ideas about this medium and you'll realize just how badly it falls short of its potential to tell stories in ways that no one has ever dreamt of before. On the other hand, you could just keep accepting the drivel we're shoveled on a yearly basis and watch the medium descend into sitcom television for all of eternity. Yay.


 Other than the Tim Schafer part I whole heartedly agree with you. I might even agree with you on the Tim Chafer part if I had any idea who he was. I am a big fan of trying to push video games as a legitimate art form, and it is usually really hard to do. Sadly, it is usually only the art style you can show off to get your point across.



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Ajax on 21 May 2008

well that's a more honest or fair (I don't know what word you would use in English) comparison Gnizmo.. you know what's so striking by the way, there also many occasions people turn things upside down and say that mass populairty is a sign of shallowness.. I can't get rid of the feeling that the big FFVII-hater-base wouldn't exist if the game wasn't so popular.. you see that with many things in life; when something all of a sudden becomes mass popular, many older fans of that particular thing, like in this case gamers who've played FF's before VII, turn away from it, and maybe also because of the game, but I also think it's  not only or really the game they turn away from, but they turn away from the masses, the masses that all of a sudden embrace something what always had been theirs, and they don't want to identify themselfs with those masses.. if you know what I mean..



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windbane on 21 May 2008
Gnizmo said:
windbane said:
 

My point is there is a reason that the story elements are often praised. And yes, if 50 billion flies like dung, that kinda shows that the dung is good for flies. MGS is good for a story-based videogame that has great gameplay, too.


 I want to go on the record right now and say I hate you for what you are about to make me say.

So you would agree that the Wii is the best console this generation? 13 million people can't be wrong right? McDonald's is also better than anything you can get in a fancy restaurant. Nintendogs is clearly the best game made in the last decade, and far better than all 3 MGS games combined! Carnival Games is better than Uncharted, Folklore, Heavenly Sword, Ratchet & Clank and a host of other PS3 exclusives! Wii Play is better than every PS3 game in existence! Popularity != quality.

A bunch of people liking it does not make it good. It just makes it popular. There can be an arguement made for popularity pointing to quality, but that is the begining of an arguement, and not the end of it as I think I demonstrated. I could go on to list possibly thousands of examples of very popular games/books/movies that are actually god awful. Some of them I even love (hai2u Stargate SG-1!).


I should have clarified so you didn't have to say those things, heh. The Wii is clearly doing something right, though... I was more referring to critics' praise of the story. It is among the best in videogames and probably has the best overall presentation. Personal experience has also led to me know that the story is good. I happen to think it's quite good. Don't worry, I'm usually the one saying that something being popular doesn't mean it's good. However, lots of people praise the story specifically when it comes to MGS because much of the game is focused on it....and it's well done. But there's no convincing rocketpig of that. All videogames automatically have bad stories.



Quickdraw McGraw on 21 May 2008
rocketpig said:

See above post. This isn't an attack on MGS but video games in general. 


Makes sense.

Comparing cinema, literature, or even select music (Although I'd give the game industry the edge to the current music industry) to videogames does seem silly.

For some reason cinema, and especially literature, is much better at creating a developed and believable atmosphere, despite the fact that you're actually immersed in that atmosphere when you play a videogame.
I'd say the biggest thing the other forms of media have over videogames is character development. For some reason characterization has been thrown out the window in videogames.



windbane on 21 May 2008
rocketpig said:
windbane said:
actually, I think it would be interesting for elitist rocketpig to suggest games that have a better storyline. perhaps I missed that in an earlier post.

I'll save you the trouble and just tell you to wait two weeks for the editorial. To put it frankly, the entire game industry is shit when it comes to storytelling. The only guy who I would give any storytelling credence is Tim Schafer. He may not write the most thought-provoking pieces but Goddamn it, he stays within the medium and makes the most out of it. His works are funny, smart, and tightly-woven.

BTW, nice attempt to brand me as an elitist just because I don't buy into common gamer rhetoric. Open your ideas about this medium and you'll realize just how badly it falls short of its potential to tell stories in ways that no one has ever dreamt of before. On the other hand, you could just keep accepting the drivel we're shoveled on a yearly basis and watch the medium descend into sitcom television for all of eternity. Yay. 


It's a light hearted labeling. I do think you are acting like an elitist. You are saying videogame story writing is all junk and it doesn't compare to the great movies and books. I'm not saying the average writing of each medium is equal, but there is a lot of great stuff in videogame writing, humor and drama. I've read great books. I've seen great movies. I've played great story-based games. All 3 provoke the same emotions and can be thought provoking. You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong about my own emotional and intellectual responses to the games I've played. If you don't like the writing in videogames, then don't play story-based games.



Ajax on 21 May 2008
Quickdraw McGraw said:
rocketpig said:

See above post. This isn't an attack on MGS but video games in general. 


Makes sense.

Comparing cinema, literature, or even select music (Although I'd give the game industry the edge to the current music industry) to videogames does seem silly.

For some reason cinema, and especially literature, is much better at creating a developed and believable atmosphere, despite the fact that you're actually immersed in that atmosphere when you play a videogame.
I'd say the biggest thing the other forms of media have over videogames is character development. For some reason characterization has been thrown out the window in videogames.


but there are also many things books and movies doesn't have, which video games do have.. and that's why we play them.. :P



''Hadouken!''

windbane on 21 May 2008
Quickdraw McGraw said:
rocketpig said:

See above post. This isn't an attack on MGS but video games in general. 


Makes sense.

Comparing cinema, literature, or even select music (Although I'd give the game industry the edge to the current music industry) to videogames does seem silly.

For some reason cinema, and especially literature, is much better at creating a developed and believable atmosphere, despite the fact that you're actually immersed in that atmosphere when you play a videogame.
I'd say the biggest thing the other forms of media have over videogames is character development. For some reason characterization has been thrown out the window in videogames.


FF7 and FF8 had some character development with Cloud and Squall. I don't think anyone is saying games are equal to books and even movies, but it's equally off to say all videogames have crappy writing.