Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: We cannot leave out the people that are signing up and palying online-poker and all sorts of other games. There are also the web-based games that you have to sign-up to play. I wonder how many of those web-based games the Wii and PS3 support. I'm not talking about flash games.... so none of the games I am talking about. Oh? Then what did you mean? And why not flash games? If you want to include flash games fine. That jsut opened a new level of games. The Ps3 does not support them, well most due to an out of date web app. The Wii probably does to an extent to what has been optimized for the controller. But I am talking about text based games (muds, text-based strategy, etc), web-launched games like the indie title Gunz the Duel and the web based MMO Fighting game Bots. So "web based games"="browser based games" after all.  Why is it that you say that the PS3/Wii cannot handle these?

 Have fun typing in a mud on the Wii.

Have fun running a game that is installed on your HDD that needs a web based codex to both launch and login to the product only available on that website.

Have fun when the PS3 web browser if you find a more graphically enhanced flash game, that supports only Flash 7 when the rest of the world is on Flash 9,makes the browser run out of the 10mbs of ram that the PS3 web browser is allowed to use.

He doesn't know the PC market?

What do you do that makes you know more than developers? Play PC games? Chat on a video game forum?

I'm sorry but I still think your in the minority with SSJ12.

PhatLaosBoi said: you and naznatips should realize that even with all the facts and numbers to back up your arguments, there will always be someone out there to contest you (to no avail as of yet) so why even bother. they will continue to froth at the mouth to prove a point and i for one am not ashamed to admit that i am one to do so. naznatips had a really great post earlier and really shed some light for me about the pc market in general (in which i am not too familiar with) but since all you hear about nowadays are console gaming, of course you are going to get arguments about why console games are better than pc's.

Well, you can also have legitimate discussions on the market with intelligent posters like Final-fan.  On the other hand, there are some posters around here who just post opinions as facts and argue consistently.  All you can do with them is present the facts then let them flop around like a fish out of water with more opinions.

No hard feelings right? I just don't want you 2 to hold a grudge against me now. :)

As I can see this is a touchy subject to you guys for some reason. (SSJ and Naz)

naznatips said: Final-Fan said: naznatips said: Final-Fan said: I had assumed "web-based"="browser-based", but that is not the case? No, your assumption is correct. My point is that although these are available the actual amount of people playing them is miniscule. That was @ ssj12. This is fun! I agree with your point ... for now. Probably for this gen. But not forever. The PC will doubtless always rule this sector of gaming, but it will not have the monopoly it now enjoys. Hrmm, this is true, but the PC is gaining new markets that the consoles may have trouble tapping. For example: The online functionality of consoles is very limited. Consoles can't release all their games via digital distribution because it would kill in-store software sales which would kill their retail support (Best Buy was just last year threatening to drop the PSP for poor software sales). Digital distribution offers many advantages. Less piracy, great convenience (you can pre-install games before they release on Steam and they'll be unlocked at Midnight), no changing of discs, up to 4 times the profits according to Mr. Newell, and more options for online multiplayer and community features.

All I can say against that is that the PC has for several years now experienced an explosion of potential due to the Internet going broadband and that I'm not at all convinced that gaming will fail to find a way to exploit that as well or find some other way to keep up.  Probably not in the exact same way, due to factors you mentioned among others, but personally I'm just as happy happier having physical stuff.  On the other hand, If the next Wii decides to do online distribution, can even Wal-mart tell them not to do it?  I doubt it. 

I have to say though that "no disc changing" is a real dinosaur.  I mean, we all remember Final Fantasy VII/VIII/IX but surely the pain has faded by now! 

Foshoryuken said: He doesn't know the PC market? What do you do that makes you know more than developers? Play PC games? Chat on a video game forum? I'm sorry but I still think your in the minority with SSJ12.

 Sorry he is just a developer, not the main publisher. If a publisher, M$, felt the PC market was a bad place gears PC wouldnt exist.

The numbers are there. Its pretty obvious that pc gaming isn't dying and that its hitting new heights thanks to digital distribution. Perception doesn't equal reality unfortunately. There is the perception that PC gaming is dying, but like any perception based on ignorance, its completely inaccurate.

Final-Fan said: All I can say against that is that the PC has for several years now experienced an explosion of potential due to the Internet going broadband and that I'm not at all convinced that gaming will fail to find a way to exploit that as well or find some other way to keep up. Probably not in the exact same way, due to factors you mentioned among others, but personally I'm just as happy happier having physical stuff. On the other hand, If the next Wii decides to do online distribution, can even Wal-mart tell them not to do it? I doubt it. I have to say though that "no disc changing" is a real dinosaur. I mean, we all remember Final Fantasy VII/VIII/IX but surely the pain has faded by now!

Well, unless console pricing takes an entirely new direction, Wal-mart can and will. Last I heard the retail profit on each console sale is literally a few bucks. Retailers sell consoles to sell peripherals and games. Not because they make profits on the consoles themselves. As far as the disc changing complaint:

I currently have 14 games on Steam. I can launch any of them at any time. I can also join a friend playing a game right from my instant message with them. In fact, I can join their server directly with just one click. No new discs, no launching and navigating menus, nothing. Surely you won't deny this convenience.

As a side note: A console focusing on digital distribution wouldn't have anywhere near Wii success.  To the contrary, the Wii's success is based on the offline multiplayer.  Not the online.

ssj12 said: Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: Final-Fan said: ssj12 said: We cannot leave out the people that are signing up and palying online-poker and all sorts of other games. There are also the web-based games that you have to sign-up to play. I wonder how many of those web-based games the Wii and PS3 support. I'm not talking about flash games.... so none of the games I am talking about. Oh? Then what did you mean? And why not flash games? If you want to include flash games fine. That jsut opened a new level of games. The Ps3 does not support them, well most due to an out of date web app. The Wii probably does to an extent to what has been optimized for the controller. But I am talking about text based games (muds, text-based strategy, etc), web-launched games like the indie title Gunz the Duel and the web based MMO Fighting game Bots. So "web based games"="browser based games" after all. Why is it that you say that the PS3/Wii cannot handle these? Have fun typing in a mud on the Wii. Have fun running a game that is installed on your HDD that needs a web based codex to both launch and login to the product only available on that website. Have fun when the PS3 web browser if you find a more graphically enhanced flash game, that supports only Flash 7 when the rest of the world is on Flash 9,makes the browser run out of the 10mbs of ram that the PS3 web browser is allowed to use.

Hey, it was a serious question.  But doesn't the Wii support keyboards?

And I didn't know that about the PS3's browser.  But that could be improved in future updates, right? 

Still, a good answer. 

naznatips said: PhatLaosBoi said: you and naznatips should realize that even with all the facts and numbers to back up your arguments, there will always be someone out there to contest you (to no avail as of yet) so why even bother. they will continue to froth at the mouth to prove a point and i for one am not ashamed to admit that i am one to do so. naznatips had a really great post earlier and really shed some light for me about the pc market in general (in which i am not too familiar with) but since all you hear about nowadays are console gaming, of course you are going to get arguments about why console games are better than pc's. Well, you can also have legitimate discussions on the market with intelligent posters like Final-fan.  On the other hand, there are some posters around here who just post opinions as facts and argue consistently.  All you can do with them is present the facts then let them flop around like a fish out of water with more opinions.

I happen to agree with other developers who ACUALLY MAKE GAMES.

Again i'll ask again. What makes you know more than Cliffy B?

Because you play video games? Because you chat on a video game forum? Are you apart of the video game industry?

Again I hope you 2 don't hold a grudge against me because you two are clearly all bent out of shape.

Also, why is this such a touchy subject for you two?